Click here to download a PDF of transcript
Angus Ross
Welcome to rewilding love this season is with a couple on the brink of divorce.
Rohini Ross
This is episode number 29. An interview with Azul Leguizamon.
Azul Leguizamon
I was raised in a very, very, very dysfunctional family. There was a lot of violence involved, abuse,
Rohini Ross
in terms of healing in terms of growth in consciousness. We don't want you to be limited to those events and defined by them.
Angus Ross
It just highlights an incredible shift in consciousness.
Azul Leguizamon
My understanding was, oh my god, I'm because of all of this suffering.
Rohini Ross
What you're demonstrating is how the suffering was being perpetuated by those misunderstandings.
Angus Ross
We kind of get caught up in the luggage of thinking and we build up a lot of luggage over time.
Azul Leguizamon
The other way of understanding my life was okay, I'm enough. She's a bad mother,
Rohini Ross
you're able to see your mother very differently from a new level of understanding. The judgment naturally lifted.
Azul Leguizamon
The worst part of it wasn't the actual experience. It was the meaning I was making it.
Angus Ross
So really at heart you got solved you're not a rocker.
Rohini Ross
Having that open mind is so powerful.
Azul Leguizamon
Oh my god, it was like a brand new life. You know, and that's what I'm enjoying. And that's what I hope everybody has a chance to enjoy.
Angus Ross
You are listening to Rewilding Love with me, Angus Ross,
Rohini Ross
and me Rohini Ross
Angus Ross
Rewilding Love is a podcast about relationships.
Rohini Ross
We believe that love never disappears completely in relationships. It can always be rewilded
Angus Ross
Listen in, as we speak with our guests about how they share the understanding behind the rewilding metaphor in their work,
Rohini Ross
and how it has helped them in their relationships,
Angus Ross
relax and enjoy the show. Azul is a life coach, a rewilding guide, a literary translator, a project manager, a school teacher, a mother, and a wife
Rohini Ross
we can pretty much say that she does everything. And for us, she is a fabulous project manager that really helps to make sure that things get executed on time,
Angus Ross
keeps us on the straight and narrow.
Rohini Ross
She's a taskmaster.
Angus Ross
She is
Rohini Ross
in the most kind and loving way. And Azul has been exploring the understanding of the principles since 2019. And she took a deep dive into them when she did the rewilding guide training that I facilitated last year.
Angus Ross
So she has a very interesting CV, I've noticed a Reiki Master, a Taro teacher, a registered Bach flower practitioner, a laughter yoga teacher, and laughter therapy practitioner really interesting.
Rohini Ross
Yes, she has a really interesting background. And through exploring all of these different modalities and her life experience, as well as her training and the three principles understanding and the rewilding guide program, it led her to realize that there is a simpler way to heal and grow in consciousness, rather than having to use all of these different techniques. And we get to hear about that when we speak with her today.
Angus Ross
So I love this interview, because she really talks about how in discovering this understanding she found herself at home, and the insights that she's had have been life changing.
Rohini Ross
yea listening to her share the shift that she experienced, it was really profound. And it's Azul was able to point in a really practical way, how she went from feeling caught up in a victim mindset to experiencing inner freedom, where she's able to access her own inner state of well being and love and feel that even more for those in her life, including very difficult relationship.
Angus Ross
Yes, she is quite the living advertisement for your program. She is a rewilding guide extraordinare, as I can see it.
Rohini Ross
Absolutely. There is there's just so much value that's gained from staying in this conversation. And I know that we started off this podcast series with the work that we're doing with our couple Alicia and Matteo, but this understanding is applicable not just to romantic relationships, it's applicable to all relationships, including our relationship with ourselves.
Angus Ross
Yeah, it's in some ways, it's interesting to me how on obviously, you know, Is the field that we've decided to focus in on, but we do get kind of labeled as relationship experts. But to be honest, I don't really see myself in that way, per se, I see myself in a very general way you can take this understanding and run it in any field. So I don't really, I don't really care too much for the labels, because I feel like I can go and do this work in a corporate setting. I can go and do this work in recovery field. I can do it on an individual basis, couples basis, it's all it's pretty much all the same conversation. So it's interesting how we kind of get pigeonholed. But nevertheless, maybe we've created our own pigeonhole. But I'm happy to queue in that pigeonhole.
Rohini Ross
Well, I think it is helpful that when people do understand that we're pointing to something that isn't about relationships, specifically, it's about what happens when we connect with that space of peace and well being within ourselves. And how we naturally have insights that occur to us, that help us in our life, and it will help us related to our relationships, it will help us related to our work will help us relate it to parenting, I mean, it will we our wisdom is there to guide us real time with whatever is unfolding in our lives.
Angus Ross
Yeah. And then to give that some extra credit, if you like, I know that we've done corporate trainings, and people have said, Well, you know, I didn't, I didn't anticipate this will help me at home. And vice versa, when we do a couples intensive therapy, talking about how it's helping them with their work. So, you know, it's very universal, and it's simplification and application.
Rohini Ross
It is. And it's that universality that makes it so simple, really, because it's something that's common to all of us that we all have the same capacity to tap into wisdom. And we all have the same capacity to get caught up in our personal thinking. And it's through understanding that dance that we are in as human beings. When we see how that plays out. With a greater level of understanding, it gives us more perspective that makes it more graceful experience, we get to enjoy the human experience more and suffer less within it.
Angus Ross
Well, without further ado, shall we hear what Azul has to say?
Rohini Ross
Yes, let's listen to Azul Well Azul thank you so much for being with us today. We're really grateful to have you join us and to learn more about your journey of rewilding. And so often, when Angus and I are talking about rewilding love, we're often talking about romantic relationships, but you're going to share with us more about what you've experienced, not just in your romantic relationship with your husband, but also with your mother and other relationships in your life. And I think it's really helpful for people to understand that rewilding love is about rewilding any relationship, including our relationship with ourself.
Angus Ross
Yeah, Azul I'm really excited to hear what you have to share. So I'm looking forward to speaking with you today.
Rohini Ross
And for full transparency, Azul is another valued member of the rewilding team, Azul as sort of our right hand person in terms of helping sure that things stay on track, and that projects get completed, and has an incredible capacity for organization and timeliness, and really helps to keep Angus and myself in line.
Angus Ross
A highly valued member. Good at all those things I'm terrible at right.
Azul Leguizamon
Well, thank you so much. Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here.
Rohini Ross
And then also, in addition to the work that she does, helping us on the back end, Azul is also a practitioner herself and working with people and at some point, we will lose her and we will be very grateful for her but very sad for us. We'll be ready for that day when it comes Azul.
Azul Leguizamon
One step at a time.
Rohini Ross
that's right. So where would you like to start in terms of sharing how this rewilding metaphor that Angus and I have been putting into the world how that has impacted you? What At what point would it be good to start?
Azul Leguizamon
I think the best would start with like, with the actual beginning of my life, I promise it won't be a long story, but give me some background to understand. I was raised in a very, very, very dysfunctional family. There was a lot of violence involved, abuse, like several things that were happening. being there, I grew up with the understanding that apparently I was a cow, because of that behaviors, you know, as a little child, like, You're, like, make some conclusions about what's happening. So, and I was told that that my parents got married because my mother was pregnant. So my understanding was, Oh, my God, I'm the cause of all of this suffering. So, through all my child, hood, and even when I was growing up, there was still a lot of violence. But I went through a lot of therapy. Like, I'm Argentinian in Argentina, we all go to therapy. I've been into psychoanalysis, Gestalt group therapy, you mentioned it, I was there. And that was quite helpful. But that took me to the stage where I felt like, Okay, I'm broken. Maybe not quite enough, but I can function, you know, I could, I was able to have a life, a positive life. But constantly feeling like a survivor, you know, like, this is my story. This is Azul the victim, you know. And my story through the time was having like, two different explanations. Like, in the beginning, it was like, I'm not good enough. I'm not allowed to be here to be alive. And I was told that when I was a little girl, like, we shouldn't have had you. And that's something I'm very big to know. So it was very difficult for me to let go. But the other reason, I mean, the other way of understanding my life was okay, I'm enough. She's a bad mother, you know, she's a bad person, like I was in the wrong situation. So any of those roles really bring me to peace. There was just ways of understanding my life. So what happened was, when I started getting into this understanding, and when I started rewilding, my life, my relationship with myself without looking without really trying, something happened. And it was, I have a daughter, she's three years old. Now. She was one year and a half, I think, also, at that point, and one day, she did something I don't remember something stupid, something that stood out to me Nothing much. But that day, it was in the evening, I was very tired. I got really angry at her. And I don't remember what I say. I mean, it wasn't nothing big. But I saw how each thought I was having in the moment was in chained with a next thought. And it was like, darker and darker. It started with Oh, my God, I have to solve these. She's doing it on purpose. And more and more and more and more. So I saw that train of thought, you know, and I didn't jump in. But I saw it. And then I left it there. A couple of days after that. Amber did something like worse. And I remember because it was in evolved water running all over from my bathroom to my house. So I remember that one. So she came to me saying Mommy, mommy Look at this. And she was worried. And I was in a different mental state at that point. So when I saw the water, I find it hilarious. And we started laughing. And she looked at me like oh my oh my gosh, it's crazy. This is a wonderful opportunity for us to really deep clean the bathroom, you know, like, Oh, it's like, so I was laughing about that. And then I saw Oh my God, my reaction was completely different. That made me so in a different shade. The way my mother was behaving all my life because I kind of understood that. She's, like, into a train of thoughts. And she doesn't know it. She's very locked up in that thinking. She has a thinking about everything is against her, you know, like a lot of thinking that really take her to our way of living that is like full of violence and aggression and she can't connect with others. But this time, I felt like I could, like taste what it was being inside of her. And so when I saw that, that really helped me to see Oh, wait a minute, it's not about me. Like, it's not about if I'm enough, or I'm not enough, I'm enough. Because I'm alive, because everybody is enough. So what happened to me with her, it could happen to any other child living with her at that time. But I have seen something more. That was that it is not about her being a good or a bad mom. She's a human being. Her nature is love. She's just very caught up in her thinking. It doesn't say anything about her. And I have changed my life. Because all my life I felt like are not enough. Or I'm the daughter of an evil woman, you know. And now I see myself like a daughter of a good woman. And I just love. She's just very caught up in her thinking. Like, now we don't have a relationship, because her behaviors are like the same. But I started to feel at that point, and I'm still feeling it, like, a huge amount of love for her that I didn't felt like, you know, my life. Like, in the past, before this insight, when I see a picture of her, something hurt inside of me. Something telling me like, Why doesn't she love me? How could you? How could she have done this thing or this other thing because some terrible things happened. But now when I see a picture of her, I feel love. And it's not love that is expecting to be loved in return. It's just an overflow of love, no expectations attached. And in that moment, it was absolutely like a wonderful thing to experience because I felt a huge relief. It was like if I was suddenly awake from a very long nightmare. And I saw myself with a brand new eyes. And that slowly allowed me like to live in a different way. Because now I'm living like, I'm a part of the world. And I have something to add. And I can enjoy. I don't need to earn love. Of course, I have my ups and my downs and sometimes all habit of thinking comes. But now I know what it's about. And I'm able to navigate that more easily. And that really also like changed the way I was, I'm relating with Amber, my daughter because at first, when I wanted to be a mother I was very very, very afraid of having something inside of me that as soon as I got pregnant or the baby's born, I would go crazy and started acting violent. You know that there was something inside of me when I was able to overcome that I still was feeling a little like sorry for my daughter because she had a mother that was like less than enough. So I tried to be a good mother like doing things that mothers do that I have never seen in my life at Pinterest has a lot of about how to be a good mother best decoration best cake to these habits. So I was doing all of that and when I realized my true nature, I was able to really connect with her without fear of going crazy because now I see that there is no gene that makes people crazy. It's like being locked up in that in your thinking so that really allows me to breathe and connect with her. I love her. Don't feel sorry for her. The same way I don't feel sorry for myself because all that I have been through really allowed me to really understand people when they are talking about these kind of experiences. And also to really love life. Because before, I felt like, not connected, you know, like I'm here, I don't know why I'm here, but I was okay with leaving life. Totally. And now, although I am not afraid of death, but I enjoy being alive and connecting with people and making projects, and you know, like leaving, really leaving, it's a gift. And sometimes we forget about that.
Rohini Ross
Thank you so much for sharing such a intimate and profound journey within yourself. That sounds incredibly liberating, as I listened to you, and that ability to access that inner freedom and inner love, your experience is a beautiful demonstration of how that is available, and how that is the essence of who we are. And that what covers it up is the misunderstandings that we have in consciousness. And that even with the circumstances that you lived with, that are real and true, and those really happened. What you're demonstrating is how the suffering was being perpetuated by those misunderstandings, and not by the events, even though they were very painful. And I think that distinction is so important, because we don't want to minimize those events or pretend that they didn't happen, or not have empathy for your experience. But in terms of healing, in terms of growth in consciousness, we also don't want you to be limited to those events and defined by them. And and what you're sharing Azul is such a beautiful demonstration of how your insight set you free inwardly.
Azul Leguizamon
Absolutely, what I'm seeing more and more is that. I mean, I'm not condoning anything that happened at all. But for me, I mean, I have received like, physical violence, like a lot. Being out in the streets, not allowed to be inside of our home, you know, like, lots of things. But the worst part of it wasn't the actual experience, it was the meaning I was making of it. And that meaning I it was like my life that you know, like I was carrying that meaning all around my life. Like, I'm not like, I just saw this like around one year and a half ago, and I'm almost 40 years old. So that was a lot of suffering, all these years, living life with all this misunderstanding. And one important thing that I would like to say also is that, although I feel this love toward my mom, and I kind of understand everything. Also, my wisdom tells me that it's more safe for me and my daughter to not have a relationship with her right now. Because they behaviors haven't changed. And their behaviors haven't changed because they are not about me. So that's the difference that I see. Sometimes we have to step aside, you know, and I leave some circumstances. But now I'm totally in peace with that. And in the past, I was very worried about not having relationship with her. Like what will sink people think you know, you don't have a relationship with your mother. But now I'm at peace with that.
Rohini Ross
Yeah, I can feel that and for you to be able to see the self honoring choice and to not have judgment on yourself around that feels really huge as well.
Angus Ross
Wow, Azul, what a What a beautiful journey that you've been on. And thank you so much for sharing it. It just for me, highlights an incredible shift in consciousness, where you realize that you're not defined by your thoughts that we're ultimately defined by our innate well being. And that's and that's the healthy vantage point through which to look at human experience. And to see it from that vantage point, you see your mother's psychological innocence. And I think that's, that's kind of like the secret sauce to be able to do life in a way where it suddenly looks so much easier. When you can see we're all doing our best here based on our programming and are conditioning through the system of thought. And to realize that that's, that's not something that needs to identify us. That's just an illusion. And that, that frees us all up to just love. Because we're coming from that, that essential nature of, of well being an eight well being. And love is the feeling that's there. So I think it's it's really lovely the way that you've seen this. And the sense I guess it's been developing over time, but I, I get the sense from the way that you articulate it, you see it really clearly. Which is, which is kind of magical.
Azul Leguizamon
Yeah, I mean, it is still magical for me, because, like, I don't know, in a few minutes, when I realized that this, like, circumstances were exactly the same, but it felt totally different. And that's where I see the power of all of these, because it allows you such a huge freedom to navigate whatever. And still, like being fully connected with who you really are. I mean, for me, that's, that's the main thing. I didn't know who I was, I had a misunderstanding that defined me as less than enough. And now I see clearly, like, my real nature, I'm enough. And everybody's enough. Even my mother acting the way she acted, like everybody's doing the best they can I see it. And that doesn't mean that I don't set healthy boundaries. But say setting healthy boundaries, knowing that everybody's doing their best. And knowing that everybody's nature is love really helps to be in the world with connecting with people in a completely different way.
Rohini Ross
An open hearted way.
Azul Leguizamon
Absolutely. Absolutely. Because, like, there is no fear, if you know that everybody is doing their best. And if you practice not to take things personally, that allows you really like absolute freedom.
Rohini Ross
When I listen to your experience, and I hear the shift, what's really apparent is how painful the judgment was for you to be holding it, the judgments against yourself, the judgments against your mother. And that when you saw in an experiential way, her psychological innocence and your own psychological innocence in terms of your relationship with your daughter, when you saw that, and when you were able to extrapolate that experience, and to see your mother through new eyes. I mean, that's the an indicator of a shift in consciousness, you're able to see your mother very differently from a new level of understanding, the judgment naturally lifted. And that's the weight that dissolves and we can't manufacture that on an intellectual level. We can know intellectually, that judgment isn't a good idea. We can know intellectually, that judgment creates suffering for ourselves. But it's not until there's that experiential shift in the way that you're describing that, that you genuinely see beyond judgment, to what's more true, what's more real. And from that vantage point, we just did an interview with Jan and chip Chipman. And they talked about viewing from a different perch. It's like you view from a different vantage point and you see a completely different reality, even though the events still unfolded. What you see is very different, and the misunderstanding that somehow it meant something about you. Somehow it meant something about your worthiness, your mother's behavior was an indicator about that, or even an indicator about her own worthiness. From that new vantage point. You saw what was more true and that nothing can really take Take away your innate value and worth as a human being. And nothing that she does can take that away from her either, even though it doesn't mean that it's acceptable.
Azul Leguizamon
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in the intellectual level, like I was understanding this, and even when I was into this understanding, I was like, Yeah, yeah, but my mother is an exception, you know, like, you can deal with that. But I wasn't looking like in a way that I could, like, connect with these in a different way, I wasn't looking for anything. It just happened that I saw that. And, like, I really wish that every adult, or even every teenager, or every kid that has been through this type of experiences really, like had the chance to see their real nature. It's like removing, like, huge amount of suffering of the experience. And you can live them and they don't go back because you already, you're already awake. You know who you are. So that's my, my main intention sharing the story is that maybe somebody hears something new, or have the chance to see it in a different way. But I know that no matter what, I have the feeling that everybody will see that
Angus Ross
I love the metaphor that you use around luggage, it seems like, you know, if we're going to consider that the judgment that we carry around is like a whole bunch of luggage that really is surplus to requirements, that really, the beauty of what you've seen is the ability to see that I can actually do this, this game of life, and I can travel light, I don't need to be carrying around all this judgment. And it's the judgment, that's the burden. That's the judgment that causes and creates the stress. And that, that, you know, I know, for one that I travel, the whole procedure of getting things on and off the carousel, putting things in the overhead bin, it's kind of like it's a lot of stress and pressure. Having everything on packed and put back together. Again, it's kind of like, it is a little bit like judgment that we carry around with us, we kind of feel like, Oh, this is the appropriate time to unpack this. This is the time to open up my suitcase, and show you what I'm feeling and experiencing and just to suddenly see the psychological innocence on these terms, you realize you can just let all that go, you don't have to carry that around with you. And I think that the beauty of that, too, is that other people get to experience that ease and grace that you know that now we are bringing to the table just in the way that we show up in life. And that has a really profound effect too. So it's just it is it is such an amazing insight to have.
Azul Leguizamon
Yeah, it was on. And I think it's still like unfolding like it never stops unfolding. Because there was a lot of changes in the way I connect with my daughter in the way I show up with my husband, because now I don't have that baggage. So I can really connect, you know, I'm not like half of my brain is in that story. And with friendships in a different way. A lot of like, projects, when I'm working on is like, really, it was a major change in my life. But it came in an organic way, like with the rewilding metaphor, right? Isn't that not something like I was working on it? I was just keeping in the conversation, you know, and nothing much like that. I mean, I was there. I was open. I was open. I think that's important. And I was open to see something new. Yeah.
Rohini Ross
Yeah, having that open mind is so powerful. And what you said earlier, as well about hoping that your story will give hope to others. I think that that's so powerful, to be generous in this way and to share in this way, in terms of being of support to others. I think it helps for people to really hear what that shift is because it's very easy to hear. Well, there's the before where you're really suffering and caught up in not feeling worthy and judging your mother and judging yourself. And then you have a thought where you realize that that's not true. And then all of a sudden life is different. Well, people hear that before they hear the after and then like but what what is that? Like how does that happen? How do you have that thought? What makes that possible? I think what you're saying now in terms of having an open mind is part of that. But there's also something that I think is really helpful about understanding the power of where we look. And that's what rewilding is really pointing to, is that we all have this innate intelligence. Within within us there is this intelligence behind life that is about moving toward health. It's about moving toward equilibrium. We see it in nature, we see it in our physical body, and that it's available there for us on the psychological level, the mental and emotional level to and that when it comes to trauma, and the way that you're describing it, what's often so difficult is that we look for answers through an intellectual understanding of the trauma, or we look to reframe our thinking about the trauma is another way of saying an intellectual understanding about the trauma. Or we are get, we get so gripped by the events, as you were describing, that, that's the direction that we keep looking in. And what I hear you sharing in terms of your experience is that you had an open mind you were in a conversation that was looking towards your true nature, looking toward your innate health. And it wasn't as if you just looked in that direction. And immediately, something happened. But over time, through looking in this direction, through hearing things through seeing things that you might not have even been registering on a conscious level. But by having the capacity to see that there was another place to look, that is about health and well being and innate worthiness, an essence of love by looking in that direction. At some point, you saw something new and fresh. So I'm wondering, Is that how you would describe it? That's how I'm hearing it. But I'd love to hear more from you and your words about what you think about that?
Azul Leguizamon
Yes, I think that's the way I will describe it, because like, I was into this understanding into the conversation. I was in the rewilding community. So that appointed me to constantly look in that direction, because this understanding is so different, to the way that we are taught how to how the mind works, how the world works, how people works. So I think the fact that I was like, looking in that direction, within the community, during the training that really helped me like I wasn't thinking about it, I was just pointed back and back to the wisdom I love to settle down. So I think that when I really was relaxed, it, like not thinking about it, not with my intellectual mind, because the problem was that with all the therapy I was going through, I went through in my past, like, I thought like, in all the details, I told the story 100 times in different shades in different ways. I speak with their, you know, it's some therapists make you like you have to speak with your mother, but discussion is your mother now. So you talk with her you write letters, you do hundreds of things. So my mind was already filled with a lot of details. So I think when I moved from that way of understanding life in an intellectual way, and also, like when I started to really understand how the mind works, what happened with our moods, you know, what means to be caught up, you know, thinking, that really was like, creating the perfect environment for me to see something new. And I think that the only thing that that people can do with if they are looking to see something new always just to be open and keep in this conversation, because at some point, they will see something new, they will see what they need to see. And that can be very different from one person to another one.
Angus Ross
It's so amazing, because I feel like it is a case of looking in in a certain direction, and that we probably use our intellect to look to look in that direction. But at some point when you have that insight, which obviously is so little to do with our own personal intellect, it doesn't become a case of what we're looking for, it becomes a case of how we look. So it's it's almost for me, we're looking from that, that vantage point, which is that place of innate well being, we look from from from that place, and everything has a completely different complexion, then looking at something through the eyes of our personal thinking. And it's almost like, it's that switchover that's so difficult to sort of articulate to someone who's so used to using their intellect to sort of find answers and find solutions and find remedies. When all along it was that simple change in optics, that suddenly we look from that vantage point. And then we can see the psychological innocence, we can see our own psychological innocence, we can see everybody's psychological innocence. We're all doing our best here. But it is so interesting to consider how we get so invested in this is an intellectual search when it's anything, but it's just a change in vantage points. And then we look from that vantage point. And we have a completely different lens through which to experience the world that we're living in.
Azul Leguizamon
Yeah, absolutely. For me, I was, while I was listening to you, I was thinking about the difference when we look at the sunset, you know, I can look at the sunset, and think about, okay, there is a yellow, orange, pink glow. Okay, there's two bears, and blah, blah, blah. And what I'm going to do next, oh, yeah, okay, two minutes, the sun is going down, that's the intellectual way of looking at the sunset, you know, but if I just go there, and admire the sound set, and that's, you know, get myself lost in colors, feelings, are now the sound of the birds, whatever, then that really helps me to settle down. And probably, I will see something new about whatever I need. But maybe not, it's like listening to music, like just enjoying the feeling or thinking about the musical notes, you know, and, and what's happening on there. So, I think what happened is that, through this understanding, you know, I, my husband is a musician, so we have a lot of metaphors around music, because sometimes I try to explain him what I saw, and I try to use something that he's saying. So I was telling him when I started this journey that, like, inside of me, I have like, like a rock band, you know, very heavy rock band that is playing very loud. Now, I realized that there is also like, one musician, playing sweet and gentle flute, you know, like in the background. So I can, like, only hear the rock band, you know, very loud. Or sometimes I can settle and like kind of, I mean, the rock band is still playing, but I'm hearing the flute. And that's for me is wisdom. And it's always there. I don't have to look for it. It's always there. But it's on me to settle down and like, pay attention to the first thing I have here. That's the rub one or two, settle down and listen to wisdom that is always there. Speaking me, speaking to me, like slowly. And always like, in a very patient way, in a perfect timing to let me know, whatever I need to know. Because now I really live life. For real, like everything I need to know it's revealed. No exceptions. And that's really like a different way of living. And this says, like, I see more and more that we all are, like, perfect exactly as we are. Even if I don't like any some behavior, or maybe if I don't like one behavior I'm having, but there's a reason for everything. There is a learning in everything. So it's always perfect. And sometimes maybe my conscience is in a higher level. And I see like more things and I act beautifully. And other times I'm I could be like a grumpy witch in the morning. I could be that too. But there is a lot of relief on seeing that. Because I'm seeing more and more that I'm not in charge in anything like I'm not in charge of how my life goes. I will see I will have information. I will find a way But every time I think I'm charged out others in charge, or I think judgment is a show, because I was I have the the habit of thinking around judgment that I judge other people or I judge everything that is happening with a plan, okay, this is how it should look, this is how it looks. And then I like compare. And now I've seen that if I can throw away the plan, and I can really see what is there, I really connect with what is there. And I find the beauty and perfection in whatever is there.
Rohini Ross
One of the other thoughts that occurs to me, when I was listening to your metaphor about the rock band and the flute, there's, there is such a beautiful experience when we're able to tune into our wisdom. But there can also be some upheaval that happens when we become more embodied and less than our intellect. And that often in the journey of rewilding. It is a spiritual journey as far as Angus, and I would see, we would say that it's a spiritual journey. But it's, it's not the kind of spiritual journey that you get to be like a Zen monk sitting at the top of a mountain, all blissed out. It's, there's an a lightness in it, there's a vitality in it that includes all of our human emotions, and that it's actually through opening up to our humanity and being willing to be in the experience of who we are, and the full range of our psychological experience, that we get to hear that flute more clearly that we get to have deeper experiences of who we are beyond our psychology. And so I'm just wondering, with any of that coming up that way for you in terms of dropping out of your head and into the present moment. Was there also a rewilding on the emotional level? And there may not have been, but I'm just curious.
Azul Leguizamon
Yeah, there was because I, because I had a lot of judgment about which emotions were appropriate, and which not. So yeah, I started to I mean, I wasn't trying, it just happened. The range of emotions got, like, bigger, like, I was allowing myself to feel anger, you know, even to feel sadness, or depression, that knowing that every single, you know, like, just gets through me. Like, without being in fear of Oh, my God, I'm feeling anger. And, you know, for me, it's like, when I watch a TV show, I'm watching a TV show on I love the character, the first step. I'm not watching the TV show, thinking, Oh, my God, she shouldn't be feeling anger, she should be like polite, and bla, bla, bla, and oh my gosh, she's depressed, just, I'm just enjoying the experience of seeing her through all the range of emotions. In fact, the shows that we all love are the ones that the characters are showing, like, more and more emotions are different experiences, like, so I realized that I wasn't doing that with myself. So my thought was, Okay, what about if I just live you know, and really live my life inside of me, just allowing myself to feel whatever, it's here for me to feel without fear. And really connecting what what is like, also in practical levels is not like, suddenly everything is rainbows and unicorns, and not like that, at least for me now, but in the past, I was like, wanting to, you know, I wanted to eliminate myself, and he always polite and perfect answer every time. Never angry with anybody. And that's not real life.
Rohini Ross
Yeah. And I think that's really helpful for people to understand, too, that that's not what we're talking about. It's not this enlightened state where you no longer have human emotions. None of us get to escape the human experience. But with what you're seeing, you get to enjoy it more and have more grace available to you. When you're having more challenging, emotional experiences. When your mood is lower. You get to ride that out more gracefully is what I'm hearing. Absolutely, yeah.
Angus Ross
I'm really enjoying reflecting on this metaphor of you live. Your life in a way or once were living your life in a way, excuse me, where it's kind of like the the soundtrack is of a rock band. And yet there is this flute playing at all times. It kind of reminds me of what Greg Ellis was saying around the click track, like that flute is like a divine click track. And it's always playing sort of setting the tone, setting the tone of how to live your life in a in a really fulfilling and beautiful way with thinking because this is where my how my mind works. I was thinking, I don't know if you've ever seen a movie called the joke with Steve Martin, where the movie begins, where he's kind of being adopted by an African American family. And there's this huge African American family or dancing on a porch that is really beautiful music. And they've got this incredible innate sense of rhythm. And Steve Martin has literally no rhythm, really making these very awkward movements. And I was thinking about how well if you could use this metaphor in such a way that you have this divine clear track, which is offering you the rhythm through which to live life, that we kind of get caught up in all in the in the luggage of thinking, and we build up a lot of luggage over time, that, that when we really start to look in that direction, or start to really try and get a sense of that divine click track, there will be an adjustment, there will be a point where we're trying to find our way, in a sense, like Steve Martin trying to find his sense of rhythm. But that sense of rhythm through the realm of thought can actually look really challenging and difficult. It's like, oh, what am I doing here, I'm kind of freaking out, I don't know how to make this adjustment. But just by looking in that direction, and just trusting that that is the divine click track. At some point, we'll create a new rhythm. And I'm probably and I'm sure create new circuitry that we can live our life in, in a in a gentler, more fulfilling way. But it is interesting to think how we get kind of caught up in the rhythm of our thinking, which can be negative and traumatic and difficult. And yet there is this divine click track that flutes always playing. And it's such a beautiful thing to sort of trust and experience. So thank you for that. work.
Azul Leguizamon
I think that another great thing is that, like, even if I get caught up, you know, and suddenly I realized, oh my god, I'm listening to the rock band. You know, I was very stressed out about this, as soon as I realized that, I'm back. So I'm not afraid about losing, you know, not hearing the flute, because it's always there. And in the past, I thought that I have to go into a certain state of the mind or, you know, relaxing and into a lot of techniques in order to get there to connect with wisdom. And now I see it's not like that. I mean, I could, I know I could be working, I cannot stress out and now that we are all at home, I could go and I you know, wash the dishes, and maybe washing the dishes, I settle down. And I say something now.
Angus Ross
So really at heart, you've got soul, you're not a rocker.
Rohini Ross
It is really freeing and liberating, what you're saying Azul is that it's not through effort, it's not through personal well, that we get to shift, it's it's actually something that's natural to us. And that we do it all the time that our mind opens and relaxes. And it's designed to do that. And that when we see how it works that way, it's easier to go with that natural rhythm within ourselves rather than to try and force it. And that when we're not open. And when we are caught up, as you're saying that. Just seeing that allows us to be more kind and gentle with ourselves. Because we understand what's happening. We understand It's not wrong or bad. It doesn't mean anything about us. And we can have kindness towards ourselves and hold space for us to have that human experience as well. It doesn't define us and so our true nature comes forward again and we feel more our natural state at that point.
Angus Ross
Yeah, but it's almost like the through thought there is a we create a dissonance from that natural rhythm that is always there within us. And we innocently get caught up in that dissonance and think that's that's what identifies us. That's that's where we suffer.
Azul Leguizamon
But I think also that it's beautiful that even if we get caught up in our thinking like thought is only like helping us to realize because at least for me when I get caught up, I start thinking You know, or sad or worry or whatever? Oh, great, great singer, I know that I can trust my thinking in that moment. I can do something else. I could be gentle with myself do whatever I is there for me to do. So actually, even if I get caught up, I will be back. Yeah. Because when my experience is like, harder, because I'm very good. At some point, I will wake up.
Rohini Ross
Yeah. It's so reassuring. so grateful for that capacity within myself. Yeah, thank goodness. Yeah, me too. And that's what I didn't see before. And I think that's one of the reasons why I was so hard on myself is that I didn't see the natural capacity to just get uncaught up, I thought I was responsible for getting myself on caught up. And the more I would try to get uncaught up, the more caught up I would get. And I would think that that was just a personal failing on my part. So it is such a relief to be like, Oh, the mind naturally gets uncaught up. That's how it's designed. What a relief.
Azul Leguizamon
Was that relief? And also, you know, I thought at the beginning, when I started in this understanding that I have to be like, very careful of not getting caught up. It was like my job, you know. And that was like a huge mistake, you know, because it's not on me. That's right. I mean, that was like a lot of effort on my part about not getting caught up. Okay, checking in checking myself in like, constantly, like, how are you doing? Are you getting caught up? You know, it's like, not that way.
Rohini Ross
It's a hypervigilance that gets us more caught up, basically. Absolutely.
Angus Ross
Yeah. And it's and it's innocently and I had the exact same experience, I'm using my intellect to stop feeling caught up, when it was always a case of when I stopped feeling caught up, it will be me not using my intellect, my intellect will have kind of gone offline for a moment or two. Yeah, that's why it's so hard to figure it this whole thing out for people. Because we're using the same machinery that got us into trouble in the first place.
Rohini Ross
Exactly. We can't think our way out of it,
Angus Ross
can't think our way out of it.
Azul Leguizamon
And in my case, that I am I kind of my husband says that I'm What's the name of this a squirrel. Because I think in a lot of things, you know, I do a lot of things, you know, constantly. So at first, my mind was like, Oh my god, like I have all this energy, what I do now, I mean, if I'm not the one who rules your work, you know, it's like, and, but what I've seen, like through these all this time, is that, when I leave my mind to do the work that is supposed to be done, you know, not the boss, you know, just something that helps, I really, like get a lot of more things done, you know, I have more information in my brain than ever. And I think because I had in the past a lot of energy of my mind judging everybody myself checking in, you know, like a lot of tasks. So now there is a lot of more energy to be use in a way that is like, a good way for me and for everybody.
Rohini Ross
Yeah, it does, it allows you to be more productive, not less productive, ultimately, but have less feeling of effort in that productivity, which is amazing. Yeah, I've experienced that too.
Angus Ross
Thank you so much for sharing your story. It's been really insightful. And it's, it's really sort of stirred up my, my powers of reflection. I love this metaphor. And I think that what you're pointing to is, or you've pointed to it in a very clear way, which I think is going to be really helpful for a lot of people. Because you you are, you know, you're what you're pointing to is, isn't is, for me is a perfect escape route from suffering, we really suffer with that luggage of judgment. And being able to let that go, be able to see the people in our life, be able to see their psychological innocence be able to see our own. It's so liberating. So thank you for being so clear in and how you shared that story. I think it's wonderful.
Rohini Ross
Yeah, thank you as all it really is so inspiring to hear your journey and the shift that you experienced. And I know that when people have that experiencial shift within themselves, they're able to point others in that direction as well. So you're a wonderful teacher. You're a wonderful practitioner, and I know that you're going to be able to help many people based on what you've seen, be able to experience more of that hopefulness and liberation within themselves. So we're very grateful to have you here with us. Sharing that And helping our listeners to look in the direction of their innate well being and health, and to relax into that to relax into their humaneness to know that all of it, as you said, is part of the journey. It's all part of our health. There's not excuse me one part of it, that's wrong. And when we relax into that, we have that open mind that allows us to see more of what's true, and what's real.
Azul Leguizamon
Thank you very much for having me here. Like, so many nice words, as you'll have, because you always like reframe and explain things in a very lovely way. Like, I can't like, how about that I'm listening to you explain this. And I'm like relaxing, just hearing you will. always kind of difficult to read.
Angus Ross
It's always difficult to follow Really?
Rohini Ross
Well, I also want to acknowledge you as though you're doing this interview in at least it's least your second language. I don't know if it's your third line. But I mean, no, it's my second. This is not your first language. And you have been so clear and express so beautifully. So that kudos to you on that front.
Angus Ross
Yeah, it's been thoroughly eliminated.
Rohini Ross
Yeah, I wish we could speak Spanish. So we could have done a Spanish interview with you. But my Spanish isn't that good yet?
Angus Ross
Well, I think it was perfect as it is, my goodness, if you can do such a good job in your second language hadn't have a nose? Where would it be? In your first language would be really, really totally Zend out now? I don't know. Well, I am pretty Zend out anyways. So I think that I think you Yeah, you did a beautiful job of sharing what you were seeing, which I think is so pivotal in this understanding. And certainly, you know, if this is a podcast, that we're, we're looking in the direction of relationship to help people there, I think being able to see one's partner's psychological innocence in that way. Huge.
Rohini Ross
Absolutely. And then what you pointed to so clearly, which we maybe don't say so overtly, that we should, is that it's really, the primary relationship is our relationship with self. And that it's through having a clear understanding of who we are truly, the fullness of who we are not just our psychology, but the spiritual nature of who we are. That includes our psychology, it's through that relationship, that healing happens. And through that healing, all the relationships in our life are impacted by that. And not just relationships in terms of people, but relationships with work relationships with money, every aspect of our life, is going to be impacted by our relationship with self. And you pointed to that so beautifully, how that healing happens inwardly, it's not about the externals, it's not about our intellect, it's about that inner realization that allows us to have a shift in consciousness and, and every aspect of our life then looks different from there. So I'm excited for how you're going to bring this and express this more into the world.
Azul Leguizamon
Thank you so much. Yeah, it really like every area of my life has been changed. Because the main thing would be that in the past, I felt like, broken, you know, that I needed to fix something. And then, like, my main objective in life was to fix me. So seeing that, I don't need to be fixed. was like, the major thing, you know, like, Oh, my God, oh, it was like a brand new life. You know, and that's what I'm enjoying. And that's what I hope everybody has a chance to enjoy, at some point, his brand new life with the same circumstances, but from a different point of view, and everything starts to unfold differently. And as you said, like the relationship with work with my daughter with has one with friends with everybody, like everything has changed, but not in a way that I was trying to change it. It's just that everything like was in the perfect place in the perfect way.
Rohini Ross
Yeah, just like when we you know, the metaphor Angus and I will often uses if we get a cut on the body, it knows how to heal the body has the intelligence that knows what to do. We're not trying to heal that cut, I'm putting effort into healing it and and that's what I'm hearing is you saw the truth of your innate worth of your love ability of your belonging of your worthiness, seeing that allow that to ripple out into all areas of your life and it knows how to do that the intelligence behind life knows what to do, you aren't the one doing and then I've heard you say that multiple times in this conversation that you see how you're not the Dewar in the way that you thought you were the duo previously. And that's, rather than being nihilistic or terrifying. It's actually really a relief and liberating as far as I'm concerned.
Azul Leguizamon
Weather really hopes that people hear when they listen to this episode. Is that really like? It's not about you? You're okay. You're okay. You're enough. your circumstances aren't the one who tells you if you're enough, or you're not enough, you are enough. And life supports you. And you don't have to do anything to see this. He will say it some way somehow.
Rohini Ross
Yeah, we already know it on some level. Exactly how we have to remember. Yeah. Yeah, remembering. Well, thank you again Azul, really, so grateful for your time.
Angus Ross
Thanks. So that's beautiful place to end.
Rohini Ross
Thank you so much for listening to Rewilding Love. If you enjoyed this podcast, please let us know by subscribing on iTunes. And we would love for you to leave a review there.
Angus Ross
iTunes reviews will steer people to this podcast who need help with their relationships.
Rohini Ross
If you would like to learn more about our work and our online Rewilding Community, please visit our website, therewilders.org
Angus Ross
Thanks for listening. Join us next week.