Angus Ross 00:06
Welcome to rewilding love this season is with a couple on the brink of divorce.
Rohini Ross 00:15
This is episode number 28. An interview with Chip and Jan Chipman.
Chip Chipman 00:21
When you first need any follow up, you really don't care about the details around the person, or their habits or whatever, you know, you just want to get close soul to soul.
Rohini Ross 00:31
Um, how long have the two of you been married?
Jan Chipman 00:34
It'll be 52 years next month.
Chip Chipman 00:36
This is the very best part of our marriage right now. After all these years, it just keeps getting better.
Jan Chipman 00:43
That feeling of falling in love. Seems like it's something that just happens when you first meet.
Angus Ross 00:48
Well, I'm glad that you were finally able to spit that out
Chip Chipman 00:53
she was one person ships. relationship has changed forever.
Rohini Ross 00:57
I made him wrong in my mind and felt like he needed to change like that was my arrogance.
Jan Chipman 01:04
I believe that's the whole key to how our relationship gets more beautiful all the time.
Chip Chipman 01:11
That simplicity teaches you for the rest of your life shows you what is real, what is not.
Angus Ross 01:17
In some ways I see presence as a surrender to what is
Jan Chipman 01:21
the only person who can really appreciate you is yourself appreciating your true self.
Angus Ross 01:30
You are listening to Rewilding Love with me Angus Ross,
Rohini Ross 01:35
and me Rohini Ross
Angus Ross 01:37
Rewilding Love is a podcast about relationships.
Rohini Ross 01:40
We believe that love never disappears completely in relationships. It can always be rewilded.
Angus Ross 01:47
Listen in as we speak with our guests about how they share the understanding behind the rewilding metaphor in their work, and how
Rohini Ross 01:54
And how it has helped them in their relationships.
Angus Ross 01:57
Relax and enjoy the show. On this particular podcast, Episode Number 28. Hey, wow, we're up to 28 already. We get to share a conversation that we had with the wonderful Jan and Chip Chipman, who I always love to hang out with. And Chip and Jan, they had the honor of being mentored by Sydney Banks from 1975 until 2009.
Rohini Ross 02:38
Yes, and Sydney Banks is the gentleman who had an awakening experience and whose spiritual understanding and teachings is the foundation behind the rewilding metaphor that we use.
Angus Ross 02:53
It's inspired and forever changed by their experiences with said they have conducted extensive programs, you know, both in the in corporate settings in nonprofit settings, in the educational community and correctional facilities, they have really run the full gamut of exploring and sharing this understanding in all of those different environments. And I have so many incredible stories to tell of radical change and an eye for one, I've always enjoyed listening to their stories.
Rohini Ross 03:32
Yes, and they've been doing this since 1975. And they're still going strong. Their bases currently in salt spring Island, and they offer one on one sessions, they do retreats with individuals, couples and groups still to this day.
Angus Ross 03:47
And chip is the president of the three principles foundation. And in 2008, co founded the three principals school on salt spring Island,
Rohini Ross 03:57
which Well, I think I've been to it three times.
Angus Ross 04:01
What is this a competition? You've only been twice. I've only been twice. But maybe I had more profound experiences.
Rohini Ross 04:09
I was the remedial student. That's what I needed to go a third time. And I think that we will be back once they're open again.
Angus Ross 04:17
Yeah, no, absolutely without doubt.
Rohini Ross 04:20
And not only is the school amazing, but Saltspring Island is absolutely beautiful, too. It's one of my favorite places. Yeah,
Angus Ross 04:27
it's gorgeous.
Rohini Ross 04:29
I really enjoyed the conversation with Jan and chip as well. There was so many wonderful nuggets that they shared. And there were two themes that came up that really stood out to me that I wanted to highlight. One is the theme of when we're seeking spiritual invite.
Angus Ross 04:47
You try to say spiritual walk.
Rohini Ross 04:51
One is the theme. One is the theme of when we're seeking spiritual
Angus Ross 05:03
Know what you're trying to say,
Rohini Ross 05:05
when we say we're seeking spiritual enlightenment,
Angus Ross 05:12
oh, enlightenment, God,
Rohini Ross 05:15
when we're seeking spiritual enlightenment, it actually takes us in the opposite direction of it. And the other theme is how presence is the key ingredient for having a enjoyable, healthy relationship? Well, I'm
Angus Ross 05:32
glad that you were finally able to spit that. Yes, I would say that those were two key points. The seeking part of the equation for me is is all i think that what really stood out for me around that idea of seeking is when they started to talk about the difference between listening I guess, and seeking, that that seeking is very much an intellectual process. It's whether analytical machinery is in full engagement, full steam ahead. And there's little room to have an insight under those conditions. So the idea of listening and opening oneself up in that way, would be will would be the positives will be on the positive flip side of the seeking, which is, which is pretty much a probably a hard slog for most the time.
Rohini Ross 06:29
I think that listening piece is so key. Because when we really listen, as they were saying, we have an empty mind, we're receptive, we're in a meditative state, if we're genuinely listening. And when you said that it made me think about a couple of things people have said to us about listening to the podcast and listening to the first 15 episodes where we work with a couple alyssia, Matteo. And we got that feedback when we're speaking at the conference where one person said that they were separated from their husband, and they decided that they would just listen to some of the podcast on a daily basis, and that just through listening to the podcast, they were able to resolve the issues in their relationship. Now, I'd like to say that it was because our podcast is so amazing. But and there is value in and I would encourage everybody to listen to those episodes with Lisa Matteo. But the act of listening in that way would allow someone to hear their own wisdom.
Angus Ross 07:36
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that this sort of keys very nicely into the second point that you made, or that you felt like you heard, to bring attention to, in the end, is it contagious is his presence and so presence for me in the way that he was talking about deep listening, you could say, yeah, that's using one particular sense to, to pay attention to something or someone. But for me, presence is really being able to experience and use all of my senses just to be in the moment. And listening is obviously one of those key senses in terms of how we can hear what the other party has to say, but being really present is not disappearing off in our head seeking some solution to some imaginary problem. It's actually being present to what is in the moment in front of me. And I get to, to experience that in a way where I'm giving it my full attention. And the deep listening part of it, for me is another way of saying presence. I love that they kind of really homed in on that.
Rohini Ross 09:02
Your presence is being outside of all of our concepts, or having at least some freedom from our concepts. And it's amazing how different people look situations Look, when we're not in our conceptual mind, and we're just with what is in the moment. And it is transformative.
Angus Ross 09:24
Yeah, there is something interesting around it to around the idea that presence is kind of, in some ways I see presence as a surrender to what is rather than being in a place of control, on trying to control this situation with my analytical mind to kind of establish what it means to me, rather than just to experience what it is and how its unfolding. It has a really different, like a different set of values to it. But there's something in that sweet surrender of being able to be present in that way where I don't have to really go mining into my analytical mind trying to find out some reference point that lines up with that. I want to see something new and fresh.
Rohini Ross 10:10
And when it comes to relationship when we are in the present moment, and able to see what's really there, what's fresh and present in that space, we see the essence of the person in front of us, we can't not see who they truly are.
Angus Ross 10:30
Yeah, and I think that then it becomes, it becomes a spiritual experience, because ultimately, what's being reflected back to us, is what is universal on a spiritual level. And we can only be in all of that, when we're fully present.
Rohini Ross 10:47
Yeah, we get to see their essence, which is really reflecting our essence. And so there you go. Yeah. And also, I wanted to note that this podcast might be putting us out of business, because we had another couple that we did an intake call with for an intensive. And we suggested that they listen to the podcast right? Between that because we weren't able to work with them for a month we had we were booked. And in the meantime, they listened to the podcast and felt they
Angus Ross 11:19
basically, totally shot ourselves in the foot by creating this podcast.
Rohini Ross 11:24
But that was the intention of the podcast, we wanted to create something that would allow people to transform their relationships, because we can't work with everybody,
Angus Ross 11:32
I guess.
Rohini Ross 11:35
We'll be eating a lot of beans and rice. Well, we hope you enjoy listening to Jan and chip as much as we enjoyed speaking with them. Yeah. First of all, we want to thank you both for participating with us today. We're really grateful to have you with us.
Angus Ross 11:58
Yes, so grateful. And I always enjoy what you have to share and the stories that you tell. I think you're such a beautiful couple. And I'm thrilled that we get to share you with our audience.
Rohini Ross 12:11
Yeah. And how long have the two of you been married?
Jan Chipman 12:15
It'll be 52 years. Next month?
Chip Chipman 12:18
Yeah. 52 years next month.
Rohini Ross 12:21
That's beautiful. That's really beautiful. So I'm guessing there's a thing or two that you've seen along those 52 years?
Chip Chipman 12:28
You'll see a thing or two? Yeah.
Rohini Ross 12:34
So I think one of the places to start would be if you're willing to just share some of what your journey of learning has been, like being married for 52 years being in relationship together? And what are the things that stand out to you in terms of your learning curve with having a relationship that has the longevity, but also has the closeness and is enjoyable?
Chip Chipman 13:01
Well, shall I,
Jan Chipman 13:03
I was, I was gonna just jump in and say that we felt like we were friends when we met. We were friends first. And then you know, about a month later, we realized. But so I just, I still feel like that with my best friend. Same here, same here. You know, it's our story has its ups and downs. But one of the things that occurred to me a while back was that discovering these principles and misunderstanding is much the same as falling in love. In the sense that when you first meet and you fall in love, you really don't care about the details around the person, their habits or whatever, you know, you just want to get close soul to soul. And that's what happens when you gain some understanding of people in their psychological innocence. You're not looking at their behavior in the details. So I was not in great shape as a young man, when we met, I come out of a difficult upbringing, you know, with violence and alcoholism and all that kind of stuff. But when we met, that just all fell away. We ended up in trouble over time with our relationship. But the first two or three years were great, we just had a good time. We weren't thinking about all that stuff. And my depression and my anger towards the world fell away for two or three years, you know, and I find that interesting when we think about it like it was great in the beginning. But slowly you know, my, my past I did, I didn't know how to let it go. I had learned not to let it go yet. And that began to poison me first again and then our relationship but really the what just came to me I love the way in you two are, operate that you just that this is just kind of as we talk, we let the things come out that we don't have when nothing was planned, we just knew we were talking to Rohini and Angus, who we love, we love you too. And in such a beautiful couple yourselves, honestly. So, but so I honestly, I didn't have any thoughts about today. But as, as been, as we started talking, it just hit me that being present, but living in the now, which was what we were searching to do, and trying to do and studying before we met Sid banks many years ago, we that's that was our goal to learn to live in the now. And
15:53
Jan Chipman 15:56
it's still something I'm learning and in a whole new level every day how to be present. And, and so as we're sitting here, I realized that the gift is, with the understanding that we've been fortunate enough to come across is that it deepens your ability to be present, within every, every second of your life to so in terms of our relationship, I'm looking at chip, and I'm thinking that sometimes I'm preoccupied and and I'm thinking about other things. And as everyone knows, after you buy after 52 years, you think you know, somebody after one year, you think you know, and so that, that feeling of falling in love seems like it's something that just happens when you first meet. And then after that, it's just, you know, same same kind of thing. But it's like, we're, it's like when you learn to live in the now. And in the spiritual sense. Like there's now being an awareness of the what's really happening, instead of being caught up in your internal dialogue. You're, you're present with the moment. And so that allows you to, to really see what you're, you know, what you're observing in the moment, and here and so. So when I look at chip, it's, it's like I, the more My mind is calm and quiet. And I can I'm feeling I'm living in more of a spiritual reality. I saw I really see, Chip, and I don't, I don't think I'm not appear in my head with my own dialogue that what am I going to say next in this conversation or any other conversation? Or are waiting for him to do the same behavior he does all the time, you know, like watching for his habits and trying to correct them. I feel like the gift is being able to, to really hear and see another soul. And that I believe that's the whole key to how our relationship gets more beautiful all the time.
Chip Chipman 18:19
Yeah, for sure. It's like, we joke about it. But we really, I really know that I don't know, jam. Like I, of course I do in terms of things I'm familiar with, but she's changing constantly, you know, as she learns, and she grows. And if I'm open to seeing that, if I'm in the moment of I'm in the now that becomes obvious to me. And so when people talk about being bored in their relationships, or we've known each other for so long, that's only in one world, you know, deeper world where that kind of boredom is impossible. It's just not possible. And so for us, somebody was asking me the other day, like, Oh, you've been around this for so long, you must be like, kind of repetitive kind of thing. And I said, Actually, this is the very best part of our marriage right now, after all these years, it just keeps getting better. And I actually feel like I'm in kindergarten with it. I feel like we're just beginning to learn. There was a day when that would have frustrated me that after 15 years. But now the way I look at it is it's just amazing. Like there's no end to learning. And there's no end to learning how to be in the now and to see each other. And it's the seeing like, going back to what I said about when you fall in love. That's all that's really happening them is. You're seeing that person you're not looking at the details. You don't care about the details when it first begins. Just that feeling, right. But that's available. I mean, after 57 years, it's still available to us to be In that moment, have that feeling and not be concerned about the details. So sometimes when we see people as couples in our work, we, we seldom see them together to begin with. But what we're really looking for and seeing them individually, is to help them get into that quiet state to do whatever we can to facilitate them, letting go, whatever detail we're thinking not about the other person about themselves about the world. Because the solution in helping them is for them to see a new world have to follow some new idea what behavior should be or not be to actually see a new world.
Rohini Ross 20:47
That that's so powerful, and I'd love to explore that. But I'd like to explore it in the way that that happened with the two of you, because chip, when you were talking about how, when you and Jen were together at the beginning of the relationship, you fell into a new world, right? You were suffering based on your family of origin history, and what you were caught up on, caught up in within yourself. And then you meet Jan, you fall in love, and all of a sudden, you're living in a new world, and it lasts for a few years. And I think this is so common for people to have that experience of grace, when they fall in love. And it could last for a week, a month, two years. But I think many people have that experience, but think it's something to do with the person. And think that then when that experience goes away, that that's also something to do with the person.
21:45
Yeah, for sure.
Rohini Ross 21:46
And that it's time to now look for a new person. So if you could just speak a little bit more to what you experienced with that shift. And then as you alluded to, it lasted for a few years. But then all of that condition thinking started to come back in. And and we know your story. So we know that you came across the understanding that Sidney banks was sharing and how that was so supportive to both of you, but our listeners don't necessarily know that. So I think that would be wonderful if you're open to looking in that direction. Sure.
Jan Chipman 22:18
So you're talking about the shift from the original shift from the happy to the unhappy,
Rohini Ross 22:25
so that there was that initial shift from unhappy to being happy, falling in love. And then the shift back to gradually getting unhappy again, and having the relationship suffer as a result of that. But then I know that there was another shift coming.
Chip Chipman 22:46
Yeah, it's like, falling in love you let go? Well, first,
Jan Chipman 22:51
that the shift from having that beautiful few years and then falling into not not feeling that there's much love, like being more conscious of each other's behavior. And that was to me, when I look back. We had gotten really serious about the spiritual search in life. So we were consciously trying to learn more about enlightenment and, and practicing, you know, enlightenment techniques and different meditations and, and rituals so that we got so serious about that, that we thought we were heading in the right direction. But that was actually what was taking its toll on our relationship is us getting so serious.
Chip Chipman 23:44
Oh, that was definitely a part of it. It's like, along with that, thinking, there's something to find and fix comes judgment of yourself and your partner and the world around you. I mean, when I think about how judgmental we were, even as a couple ballroom, neighbors and friends, you know, and family and family, particularly family, you know, that's, that definitely contributed to our It's a strange thing to say that our search for our spiritual understanding, actually contributed to me going back into my past, and jam, you know, our relationship falling down. But to me, there's like that falling in love and not looking at the details. It's the same process is when you learn and understand in the sense that you're letting go of thought. You know, you're just, you're just there, you're present in and you love that presence and you love the feeling. But you don't have an understanding of why that's occurring. You think you do but you don't like you were saying, repeating it. And because you don't have understanding, you can't keep it and that's what happened with us. We had something but then we went searching And
Jan Chipman 25:01
that, but it only took one of us to catch on, that we were on the wrong track. And it only took one of us to have an insight that what life is is not people's behavior, who people are their behavior. So my insight was, I had thought I was my behavior and chip was his behavior. And the behavior at that time was horrible. So we were both feeling that and then, but when I had an insight, that there's something deeper, who we really are something as a soul, a pure soul, a pure essence, that change in myself, actually generated that, that new understanding for both of us but which showed me again, that you can't fix anyone. And, and you can live just in taking care of your own health, and that we even though we love each other, and we, we would miss each other, if we weren't together, what you were saying Rohini is, it's like a spiritual independence that you you find, you have to always start with yourself.
Chip Chipman 26:25
In terms of working with couples, that example, continues to be at the core of our understanding how to help people that he really does. As soon as one person shifts, the relationship has changed forever, you can't guarantee that the other person will but come to use a baseball analogy, your your batting average goes way up. Because one person drops out of the game, you know, and that's what happened with us. Jan just dropped out of the game, and I didn't know what to do with it. It's very confusing. You know, we've been arguing and fighting, we didn't have our divorce papers in hand, but we were close to it, you know. And then Jan had an insight, literally, in one day came home a different person. And that was very confusing to me, because I had all my ideas of what one had to do to make that happen. rituals that studying meditation, that the whole thing, and I couldn't comprehend somebody going and listening to somebody for an hour or so. And having a complete change I thought it was put on. So it was very confusing to me. But I think this has happened many, many times to the course of this understanding is the fact that Jen's changing, sustained. I could pull her back a little bit here and there, you know, I could get her upset. But it never lasted. And I could always see her returning to that base, so to speak. And that eventually changed my confusion, to curiosity. And it was hard to get me curious, because I thought I knew the way the world was constructed. But once that happened, and I listened to a little bit, then a new element came into my thinking, instead of just my belief system, the element of hope ended my thinking, which opened up, you know, possibilities that were close to me before hope changes the direction you're thinking. So when one person changes in the relationship, the possibility to poke coming in for the other person is established. No person may not take I came really close to not taking To tell you the truth. I was so lost. But think of it this way. If Jan hadn't had that change, and that possibility wasn't in front of me. No would have been no, no possibility. batting average was multiplied. By that change.
Angus Ross 29:14
There's, there's something in that change. And I feel like a big part of this experience for me, because Rohini became the enlightened one, shall we say, in our journey together? And I feel like I've had conversations with various clients on this level. But I feel like what really changed for me. And what I was noticing about Rohini is that the judgment disappeared, or all I was experiencing from Rohini was was this sense that she really believed that I was suffering with my thinking. And I think it was that compassion that I recognized in her that was void of any sense of judgment that allowed me to have room to breathe. I think if she had been showing up from a place of judgment in terms of how I was behaving or how I was showing up, then we will have just locked swords. And we would have been back to where we started. But the fact that she showed up with this with a sense that I was suffering and had compassion for it. That was the secret sauce that that changed things in our relationship. I feel like that's what I'm hearing from you guys.
Rohini Ross 30:24
Yeah, I think I had a similar insight to Jan, where I really was very judgmental, about anguses behavior, if he was irritable or angry, or, you know, not behaving in the way that I thought he should be. That I made him wrong in my mind and felt like he needed to change like that was my arrogance. And, and it was very difficult, if not impossible for me to see how cruel I was being in that judgmental stance that I was taking, and I wasn't seeing my own arrogance and lack of humility. And so when I was able to recognize that we behave in unkind ways, when we're caught up, and we're suffering, and that's the best we know how to do in the moment to try and discharge some of that internal pressure, that it isn't personal. Like that was huge for me to be able to see that. And that before that every time. I felt the pain. So immediately, if Angus said something to me, that was angry, it really did look like he caused me to feel a certain way. I wasn't seeing the role of thought and my own thinking in that I wasn't seeing that. It wasn't what he said and what he did. It was my own self judgment that was telling me, I've done something wrong. I'm not good enough. I'm unworthy. Like, that's what I was feeling. But I just didn't see it. And so when I had a glimpse into like, that's just him suffering. It didn't hurt me anymore without him changing. And it's not that I'm never judgmental anymore. I want to be clear about that. But when I was able to see his psychological innocence, it wasn't just for him. It was so liberating for me, to be able to see his psychological innocence, I stopped suffering. And actually then is he saying had some compassion for his suffering. And I would say that's really was so transformative in our relationship. And I think why we're so passionate about sharing this with other people, because we feel like we're slow learners. We've been married a very long time before we saw that. And it's like, we could see it, other people can see it. So you had your insight, Jan, that really sounds like helped you to stay more connected with that well being within yourself and to not take chips behavior personally and have compassion for him. And chip, you said that it was confusing, but it gave you some hope. So what was it like then for you in terms of your own personal journey with your own insight? How did that unfold?
Chip Chipman 33:13
Well, that confusion, at the beginning was all consuming, there was no open that confusion, I just want to clarify that. It was the fact that I saw something sustained and knew that it was more than just a thing that was going to pass, I could see that I could see that Jan was a different person. And I think probably the first little bit of recognition, recognition of that fact, is where the buck stops. Because it's there. It's possible. And so I, once I got a little bit of curiosity, I did start listening to jam and then eventually, to some moments worth some time, said, and I still was very skeptical, said, you know, like, there's no way that some welder doesn't come along. You know, I had so many ideas about that. But I did start listening. And I think I started having some small insights. What was very interesting to me when I look back on it now is from the time that Jan that said and had her experience to when our marriage completely flipped around was probably two to three weeks, at the most, you know, but I still didn't understand it. And when I look back at it now, this is what fascinates me. That changed all of a sudden, everything, not everything, but it was so much better. And we weren't fighting and arguing. We had a nice feeling in the house. And I could not put my finger on what we had done or not done or change. And I still get it just changed, right? And so that when I look back is amazing to me because I mean I have some understanding why that is is now but even so was miraculous in that sense and that there wasn't anything we had to do. There was no doing it just happened. And then after listening for a while, and having a bit of a feeling about it and listening to said, I had the experience of still kind of beating my head and being up one morning early, and sitting on the couch, and Jan was on the floor playing with our three year old son. And the light, the morning light was coming in at a really steep angle, early morning light, and the shining in their hair, and it kind of caught my attention. And I looked over at them in this feeling just rushed in this rush. And I became very emotional. And I just felt all of these feelings I hadn't felt. Maybe since Jan and I first met, it just rushed in. And I really didn't understand what was happening. But the thought occurred to me when I saw this, that all it the thought I only thought I had was all I have to do is surrender, there's nothing to do. And everything changed for us after that, you know, I just have to let go of things that I really, it took me a long time to understand what that moment was. It was later after listening more to sit and getting more understanding that I saw that that was my first experience of actually seeing being in a neutral state. It's whatever thinking I had fell away. And I saw Jeff, and I saw our Sun. And I knew somehow knew that what I was seeing was the true reality. You know, and that the rest was just, it was just an illusion just thought I knew that was the true reality. And one of the things I love about all this is that particular insight, that scene is still teaching me today. It's basically the same thing. Either I see, jam, and what's really in front of me see this world or I mean my hits one or the other. But seeing as simple as isn't so amazingly simple, it's hard to explain. And yet, that simplicity teaches you for the rest of your life shows you what is real, what is not. And allows you to freedom to choose what is real. What is real, is always more beautiful than what is not always guaranteed. It's just too simple.
Rohini Ross 38:01
It is simple. But that falling out of the illusion isn't necessarily that easy. But the way that you both describe it is that it's something that just happens. And I think this is a really important point that you're making is that you talk about how when you were both seeking that because it sounds like you were both really working very hard to fall out of thought. And it was actually taking you in a direction it sounds like where you were getting more caught up in thought. And I can relate to this, and I'm guessing other people will be able to relate to that, too. So I'm just wondering if there's anything more that either of you would like to say about that? Because it seems very paradoxical.
Jan Chipman 38:47
Well, when you just said it's, it's not easy to fall into it is that actually the falling into is easy part. So that for me trying to be this, this improved version of myself by the search, you know, that the wanting to be better, a better person, which I thought the way to do that issue, you got an Eastern religion and, and and I was raised, you know, in an orthodox religion, you know, Catholicism, and so but I had not wanted to continue practicing so I didn't believe in ritual. So then what do I do? I go into the rituals of Eastern religion, you know, like, zen meditation, and, and so and so then. So that was me trying to find myself. But when it was time for me to hear from my true self, it just happened. I just happened to be with some friends who were visiting this person, Sidney banks and we heard about but we weren't interested because we felt he wasn't valid. He wasn't authentic, you know, how could someone from our local area who was just an ordinary middle class person, how could they have, you know, be enlightened and, and so, but then I just happened to be with some friends who are visiting him, and ended up in his living room one day when he was, had some friends over, he and his wife had some friends over. And he, in the middle of this, you know, social visit with them. And I was just an innocent bystander, I was very shy, at the time, I was just waiting for my friends to take me back home, you know, and, and then all of a sudden, he looks over and says, If everyone could see who they really are, how beautiful they really are. Inside, and there's a whole other part of them that they don't, they don't, if they got to know that part of them, they'd have all the happiness they could ever imagine. And in that moment, I wasn't looking to get anything, I was just waiting, you know, waiting it out, till my friends brought me home. And boom, I heard something that broke through the radar once it said that, and I, I remember the feeling of if, if before that someone had said, Oh, you're such a beautiful person, I would be like deflecting it. Because that's my, my image of myself was so low at that point, like I was a really hope, helpless and insecure person in my life was like, super unhappy, because I was blaming everyone in the world, in every event on my end, for my unhappiness, so all of a sudden, I opened up to hearing that, like, there's all this beauty in me that I didn't know about, and I, and I let it in, I let that feeling in and it wasn't. Now I look back, and I wasn't hearing it about my personal self, I was hearing that there's this, this beauty within. And for some reason, just letting that in and allowing it to be true in that split second, wiped away, all my thinking of that split second about any insecurity, I totally gave in to that feeling that yes, who I am is this amazing, pure essence, and all healthy, and everything was all in a feeling. And, and I knew that the rest of my life is going to be beautiful. And it was I this metaphor happened in my head, this pathway spread out in front of me. And that was my life. And there was no details. It's like this, this empty pathway, but I knew everything was gonna be okay, including my marriage, it was a knowing. And then in the next second, I realized that the wisdom had to be coming from in me that because of all what all the wise people without has been saying that you can only find wisdom in yourself. It occurred to me that it looks like the wisdom is coming from this man in front of me who's talking. But it has to be coming from in me How could I hear it otherwise, and so that in that moment, I knew that I'd always had wisdom. And I'd have it for the rest of my life. And that was a split second, I fell into it. I gave up the struggle. And I didn't even give up the struggle. It just happened. It just it That was my moment.
43:49
So
Chip Chipman 43:52
you can't make it happen. But you can be open to the tap. You know. And that's what listening is about. Listening isn't about making it happen. Listening is the portal to that quiet mind where that possibility exists. Listening at the deepest level to somebody who knows something, listening at the deepest level. You can't, you really can't pick and listen at the same time. In that sense. You know, it's it's a mathematical impossibility, you really do it together. And so what we have in this opportunity to learn is the possibility to listen to somebody speaking from that true reality. And when we listen quietly enough, and our ideas fall away, our thinking falls away or our concept of the world falls away and work. We're in the now. Then we see it's got nothing as Jim was saying it's got nothing to do with who's talking in that moment. You know, I mean, I'm great. For who was talking the lead. But in that moment, it's you stepping through that portal. And so you can't make it happen. But you can be open to it. And if you're open to listen, if you don't, you know, you know, it's pretty simple that way. But I honestly think like, there are no accidents. In that sense. Like anybody listening to this podcast right now, you're here because you're here. You're here, because you're listening, you hear in the same way that Jan ended up in that house and saltspring I ended up in our cabin listening to her, you're here because there are no accidents. You know, it's, it's, I guess, I kind of romanticize this, but we were first married, and we're having a great time. I, as a kid, I had run away from Central Canada out to Vancouver. I love Vancouver. Yeah. When I met Jim, and I was only 18. When we met, we were we were kids. And then we get married. And I just would go on and on. But we have to move to Vancouver. Jan's whole family's her whole life was in Toronto, and she'd say, Oh, I can't do that, you know. And then one day, he just decided we would do that. But I remember just before that, we had one of those nights as a couple where we talk all night. And what we were talking about was the way we were raised in this great feeling we had now and there must be something out there. There must be something, some understanding that can preserve this and, and help the world and we we committed in that conversation to looking for and then proceeded to look in the wrong direction. But we did, we did. And we traveled, we loaded our little beetle, or Volkswagen, and we traveled almost 3000 miles, we had no money. You know, we stayed in our tent in the national parks, as across Canada. And this phenomena started to happen. We would set up camp, but we'd hear a guitar, go join, play some music with some people we didn't know. And then we'd fall into these conversations like we'd have that night like, well, what is it? You know? Why are we here? What's, what's the spiritual? What's, where's the spiritual? And this would happen repeatedly, as we cross the country, we'd end up in these conversations, and we were just kids, you know, but these conversations, we were really, we were feeling something right. So years later, we meet see it, and our life has turned around. And for some reason, after dinner, we're telling them about that story about we had that conversation and then across the country met all these people and had these amazing conversations. We finished telling the story said goes, you know who those people were? And they said, No, we've never seen them again, this one person you knew, you know who they were? No, we don't know. And she just smiled and said, they were new. To me, and that's what this journey looks like there are no accidents. We end up in a place where we're listening to knowledge is because we it's our time to put ourselves there. All it requires is listening.
Angus Ross 48:44
I was reflecting on so much of what you've shared thus far. But I love this idea that we're all not this idea, this truth. We've we, we fall through this portal into a spiritual reality, we suddenly have that understanding or a sense of that understanding. And I think that couples get together. And they have this first experience of romantic love. And that that may be cannot be sustained at that level of intensity for any prolonged period of time that that eventually, let's say softens, then to have this, this powerful of understanding the spiritual awakening, which is what it sounds like, where you start to, to view the world through that lens. And that your partner really suddenly becomes this reflection of that spiritual understanding that something that you've seen in yourself is now reflected in them because on a universal level, we're all brothers and sisters together, playing this game of life. I so love that idea because I had this thought for that, that a few years ago, I guess, before the pandemic, you can go and play these games and we were doing as a family, they're called escape rooms. I don't know if you've heard of this.
50:20
I've seen sitcoms where people do that.
Angus Ross 50:23
Yeah, that's right. So they have these escape rooms. And they basically you have to go into these sort of environments where it's set up. So you have to figure out how to get from one room to another and all these different clothes, and, and all these different puzzles that you have to figure out, when we go in a fact that go in as a family, and you kind of have to really work together, like someone will be good at work to figure out one kind of puzzle and someone will be good at figuring out another kind of puzzle. And, and for me, it's kind of like, what I see now is like, life is just like one, this one big, beautiful game. And that, that our partner really is just another reflection of that spiritual understanding, and that they're having moments of clarity, and we kind of glorify in those moments of clarity in the same way that I would glorify it, my youngest daughter, suddenly figuring out how to figure out this puzzle is like, that's how I see us playing the game of life, we are all spiritual beings having this incredible human experience. And every now and again, someone has a moment of clarity and less like, oh, there it is, they're really tuned in and you're reminded of who you really are at your core. And I feel like that's what you're sharing, you suddenly have this moment of understanding, and you get to see who we all really are, we're all really this spiritual, essential nature, but is that intelligence behind life. And it's such a beautiful feeling. And we kind of go in and out of it. And those moments when we're in it is just such a feeling of grace, and to be in partnership and union with another individual. And just get to see that reflected back to us at every turn is just so what a gift. And yet we get so attached to this idea of the romantic lover and what love and what that means. And that's obviously a beautiful thing. But the real, the real richness of the of the relationship is in that reflection of that spiritual essential nature, being shown to us and demonstrated to us. And I love what you see and what and how you share this.
Jan Chipman 52:35
Thank you that was beautiful. So it's absolutely what hit me is in it. Seeing it that way really does smooth out everything in life where you have, like, the typical day within relationships where people are, have judgmental feelings, or they you know, get angry with each other behavior can be, you know, like, have a lot of friction. But the deeper you go into this understanding, it takes care of all of that, and yet, you're still human, like, you know, you said Rohini sometimes you still have judgmental thoughts, but it gets nicer and nicer. And, and even when things come up that seem like real challenges in family relationships. You don't you just for me, I just leave it alone, I don't try and fix it, it just I just know, it'll things will smooth out. And even that is an amazing gift. So we're still living a human life. But it's, we're living it with more of a feeling of love and understanding. And, and so you trust in life, and you know that everybody will see it in their own time. And that's why I think it's easier to in relationships, to not be bothered by other people's behavior, because, you know, well, they'll get it, they'll get it. It's not up to me to force them to see something. And, and and so you just sit back and you you relish your own experience of life. And that's how this understanding is spread to other people is people see someone having a beautiful experience of life. And and it is far as them so you don't try and change people. You just live it yourself.
Chip Chipman 54:27
You know. Having said that, that's really kind of the way we live, but every once in a while, you know, there might be some habit I have that's kind of chronic and gets in the way. But we find ourselves laughing and talking about it one more good state of mind. Right? We don't we don't try and convince one or another that this is wrong or that's wrong. But it isn't that we don't ever address it here. We do. It's usually when we're smart. At least it's one more in a nice and You know, it just, it just seems obvious, okay? You know. And if you just, you see that in but you don't go beyond observation, just all you need is the observation. The second you go beyond observation, the judgment, right must change, you're all back, you're back in it. But when you just observe the benefit of having a quiet mind, and just the way I would put you actually see the game of life, then that observation becomes valuable, right? Not through effort just to understand.
Rohini Ross 55:46
It's amazing how leverage understanding is and what I, when you said that word, trust, Jen, it really jumped out at me that we're looking at how we can trust, our essential nature of love. And that's why Angus and I use the rewilding metaphor, because we look to nature and how there's always this incredible impulse for nature to express and to express in the most healthy, vibrant way possible. And that's just how nature works. Whether there's concrete on the ground, it's still going to try and have some grass grow through that at some point. And that love that's within us, our spiritual nature wants to be expressed, it's here to be expressed, and we can trust that. And when we're working less and trusting more, there's so much more room for the health of that expression to come forward in ways that we can enjoy. Versus I know for myself, when I get into more of a controlling mindset and think I know best or think things need to be a certain way, then it's actually working against that innate state of love. And not that it can get rid of it. But it can be uncomfortable for a while. And I think that that's what happens in relationship, we get anxious about things, we get insecure about things. And rather than seeing that, that's our state of mind, and that we're, we're in that reality of insecurity for that moment, and that's temporary is going to pass, we then react to it and think we need to fix something or change our partner, or make them different so that we can feel more comfortable. And that's when things tend to spiral downward. At least I know they did for us.
Angus Ross 57:41
Yeah. And if that's what you're saying, working less, and trusting more is kind of what you're saying chip is like, it's it's you don't have to do more, you have to listen, you don't have to, to engage the critical machinery, you can just listen,
Chip Chipman 57:58
we all have learned to trust that, like, our habit throughout our life is to try and figure it out. We've been taught to try and figure it out for our entire life. Our intellect is operating in that mode for our entire life. You know, in spite of the evidence that it hasn't worked. That's the point that gets me, you know, in spite of the evidence, but when you first experiment if you want, which is trusting just being quiet, and you see the outcome, then it gets easier to trust it. But it does take a little bit, when you first come across this understanding, to really trust that I guess at the deepest level of trust that everything actually is okay. There really isn't a problem. But it does take a while just because that's who we are. That's how we're visualized.
Rohini Ross 58:51
Yeah, we're taught, we're taught or we're conditioned to almost worship the intellect and a sense and to not really listen more deeply to a different kind of knowing that is within ourselves that we all have the way you talked about it. Jan, you realize that? Wait, this is coming from inside of me. Like even though Sidney banks said something to you the realization was your own wisdom being revealed to you in that moment, and that we all have that and that it's right there. But we don't always look in that direction. We're not always listening for that kind of knowing. We are often more captivated by the noise in our head, rather than than that space of presence that you both spoken to so beautifully, but that it's equal. Everybody has it. There's no greater or less than, it's, it's just the difference might be that some are more willing to listen to it than others. Some are more willing, perhaps to trust it than others, but that it's there in equal amounts.
Chip Chipman 59:59
I love It would say sometimes talking to a group, we would look at one person in the group and say, There's nobody on this planet any wiser than you. It's that's not a philosophical statement. It's a statement of fact. And then when we, when we keep that in mind, well, with everybody we encounter, but particularly relationships. We go to the same ground equally, we share that ground equally, you know, we learn from the inside instead of the outside, it's so it is eloquently simple. Sometimes that's the problem.
Rohini Ross 1:00:45
Right? We're like, this can't be it.
1:00:47
What else is there?
Rohini Ross 1:00:50
This can't be enough. Yeah,
Angus Ross 1:00:53
yeah. Cuz I intellect won't, won't accept that. That's okay.
Chip Chipman 1:00:58
You know, I love when we talk about the intellect. Because the thing that's been occurring to me more in the last few years is that the intellect is not the enemy. It's only how we're using it. That's the problem. Right? And when we find that deeper understanding, when we get quiet, when we're given the now, then the intellect becomes this incredible tool that it was meant to be. Rather than something that we're allowing to control our experience. It's not the enemy.
Angus Ross 1:01:28
Yeah. incredible piece of technology. Kind of like a 3d printer, right?
1:01:35
Oh, yeah.
Angus Ross 1:01:37
It doesn't use it's, it's, it's not the source of creativity, but it's very good at executing the form of that creativity.
Chip Chipman 1:01:45
Absolutely. And when we drop out of habitual thinking, then that's where new thought genius comes from. Yeah. No, I used to think that genius was the speed of this computer, its storage capacity, or retrieval capacity. But that's not what genius is. Yeah, maybe part of it in some people's eyes. Genius is the ability to access new thought. original thought. And that's also what we do, when, as a couple, we drop out of our belief system about each other, you know, Alright, go to original thought together. And the feeling is gotta be amazing. It's absolutely.
Rohini Ross 1:02:27
Yeah, I appreciate you bringing us back to that. Because that was what was said at the beginning. I think you said it, Jen. Like, the key to relationship is that space of presence. And that when we're in that space of presence, that's when we're in the fresh thinking, we're not in our habitual thoughts about what happened even five seconds ago, we're just here, now. And it's so rare. To be in that space. It's not necessarily the norm for people, I know that I spent a lot of my day where I'm just, you know, in my head, but when I drop into that space of presence, it's just so hard opening. And that feeling of being resourced by that is so beautiful. And and it's, it's funny that the habits can be so strong, because the feeling is so good. You think, well, we should be there all the time, like, What's the matter, but it's just it's so easy to get caught up in the unconscious thought patterns, but the feeling, I think, is that beautiful guide that lets us know, are we here, now? Am I seeing Angus in the present moment? Or am I seeing him through the lens of some kind of judgment of my own conditioning?
Chip Chipman 1:03:48
It's a delicate balance. Because I know from my personal experiences that you have to have a degree of acceptance of your humanity, you know, that you will have thought again, you will get caught up in and just to be kind to yourself, you know, like, just like everybody else, it's no deal. You know, that being kind to yourself about whatever level of acceptance of our humanity is an important part of this because it can send you backwards quickly.
Angus Ross 1:04:28
I love the idea that there will be these moments of grace where he might experience well being you might fall into that beautiful feeling. And then I feel like my intellect is like, well, let's map it out. Let's find out how we get back there as quickly as possible. How do we sustain this?
1:04:46
Let's write an instruction.
Angus Ross 1:04:47
Exactly. That's right, a reference guide and went right back in our humanity and the feeling of God, or it's kind of like, we have no control is site acceptance and surrender is like just come through grace and I guess that's just how it needs to be but a critical mind. So once that reference guide,
Chip Chipman 1:05:07
that's one of the things I loved about talking to Sid, was that when he was in a certain mood, he just saw the humor and all that. He didn't laugh at you, he really laughed with you. But he did. Last, we got a call one morning, we were living on saltspring, the scene said that I'm working on this book for you to come over and work with me. I'm like, Oh, god, I'm in a bad mood. I don't want to see sit at ease, you know. And I knew I had to go and jams like in the car or whatever. I'm like, I don't want to go. It was just one of those moods and we get there. And of course, Sid, and Jan started laughing and having a good time. And I ate it. You know, like, geez, I couldn't stand it anymore. And I went in the kitchen. Pretend to make some tip just to get away from them. out there, Oh, geez, I gotta shake this mood or whatever. And I'm walking back out, I had a tray of tea and Sint comes to eat right meets me in the doorway. Pokemon shoulder, we just looked at into this big smile on his face, these female just cracked up and I started cracking up and the three of us have been in the living room. We don't know what to rely on God Exactly. But you know that he saw the innocence of it, he saw the humor to that moment helped me a lot, just the humor and give it up. Okay.
Rohini Ross 1:06:39
There's so much resilience in that. And I think that for me, yes, Angus, and I have so many more experiences where we're in beautiful feeling where we're just, you know, enjoying each other's company. But I think what I'm most grateful for, I'm grateful for that. But what I'm most grateful for is how this understanding allows me to be resilient. And the times when we're not having that, like, I think that's what I have the most gratitude for, because that is when I used to really spiral downwards, and think that I wasn't okay, and that things needed to change or I needed to be with somebody else. And now to just be able to be with humaneness, my own humaneness, and his humaneness without needing to fix it. Without thinking that I need to work on improving myself, like self improvement was so exhausting a huge part of my life. And to be able to put that down is is really freeing, and I'm just incredibly grateful for that and I know you are too and give
1:07:42
up without,
Rohini Ross 1:07:43
cuz I wasn't only trying to improve myself, I
1:07:45
was always trying to improve you to, well,
Jan Chipman 1:07:48
that was beautiful, when we hit me that one thing you could add to the list that we hear all the time in with people struggling in a relationship is I don't feel appreciated. And that is like that, I could do that, you know, anytime just all day long. It doesn't have to be have any reason for it. But if I'm tired, and I'm out of it. And so that what I've learned is the only person who can really appreciate you is yourself appreciating your true self. And, and accepting like you say accepting your humaneness and, and the beauty of your really beautiful innocent personal self. And, and just seeing it as beautiful and all its little, you know, ups and downs and, and just seeing your innocence. So, so you can appreciate and just kind of shrink your world. And it's it's insidious to say the beginning, when we first met him all those years ago for at the beginning. So just be selfish, in a way in the sense I used to think well what did that doesn't sound good. But he meant like you take care of your own happiness, and trust that that will take care of everybody around you. And like at that time, we wanted to help the world. You know, that was why were apparently more on that search. And when he said that, at first, it didn't make sense to me in my old beliefs. But it's so true. You take care of your happiness. And it's not selfish in the terms of the world that might seem selfish, but it's the most loving thing you can do for the world.
Chip Chipman 1:09:33
Absolutely that that's a snapshot of how I see how we look at relationships that I'm not dependent on Jan for my happiness, Jan's not dependent on me for her happiness, because that's true, we can really be happy together. Very simple, really.
Rohini Ross 1:09:52
Yeah. And that that happiness is actually a state of mind. It's a It's that place that you're talking about dropping into, it's that that being in the now that it is always there, even if we're not experiencing it. And when we understand that I know, what I've seen for myself is that there's much more willingness on my part, when I'm stirred up, and feeling unhappy, and suffering, to be willing to allow myself to be selfish, which I don't think is selfish, but self honoring, as maybe what I would say is to be self honoring at those times, so that I let my mind relax, so that I can get back to that place of contentment within myself, independent of whatever the circumstances are, that may or may not meatsuit may or may not need to be addressed. It's not like we don't address things as well and are alive. To do that, from a reactive place never tends to go well.
Angus Ross 1:10:54
Yeah, there's, there's something about this too, for me, where if if we really embrace and understand that we're responsible for our own happiness, and that's how we're showing up in the relationship, then the other party would be able to feel so much more relaxed and relieved that there's no pressure on me here to be anything else other than who I am, and not expecting me to be something else. Because if that other person was to believe that their happiness was contingent upon the other person's behavior, that that would create a whole bunch of pressure in itself, that I'm sure just creates a dynamic of struggle. Whereas if that person is just like, oh, there, they seem to be happy, they seem to be doing pretty well for themselves. There's no pressure on me to be anything else. So then I who I'm being,
Rohini Ross 1:11:44
but even the flip side of that, Angus, because Angus was one of the dynamics that we had is that I would get really low. And then Angus would feel like it was his responsibility to try and get me out of my loan. Not really, because I mean, yes, he cared about me, but mostly because he didn't like being around. But to be able to realize that, yeah, if one of us is in a low mood, there isn't anything that the other one needs to do not that we need to go out of our way to be unkind, but that we can trust that they're going to find their own way, and that they have it within them to navigate that and that we can just hold space for that. And it just takes so much stress off
Angus Ross 1:12:23
of the relations. Yeah, that was such a huge relief for me to be able to take that off the table that you kind of like you know, you're having your, your, your moment, you're having your experience and that I don't really need to do anything here. And every time in the past where I feel like I would have to do something, he just went south, so quick. Now I can just leave it alone,
Rohini Ross 1:12:44
trying to try to help so when in low mood is never very gratifying.
Chip Chipman 1:12:47
No shame for us. You know, I mean, there are little things like sometimes when I'm in a bad mood Janell picks me a cup of tea, or something, you know, or asked me about what to go for a walk, and that's okay, but never tried to fix it. I shouldn't say never, we occasionally do that. As Angus says, it goes so quick.
Jan Chipman 1:13:06
It's so beautiful, that we less and less, think about any area of our lives, I think less and less about any area of my life, that could be improved or just is different than other parts, you know, I just know that beneath all the the realities that we're talking about, there's a there is a true reality, that life springs forth from that, that true essence that we are everything springs from there. And if you if you keep going back to that, that, just being open to learning about that part of you that true self, like just being open to, to discovering it. However, that process looks just just trusting in life, and that it takes care of everything as as our relationship gets nicer. Everything in our whole life, like how I operate in my know, the business that we run, and how I operate with in our community, how I operate in my thoughts about what the government demands for me, you know, they have to pay taxes, like, absolutely everything in life gets looked after, without having to pay attention to certain areas. That's why we don't we taught we'll talk about how this has helped our relationship. But we know that she's just a product of that getting that quieter mind and that more of an awareness of who we really are before this personal self.
1:14:49
It's so
1:14:51
I'm so grateful for that.
Rohini Ross 1:14:55
Yeah, that I mean, that's it that awareness of who we are beyond the person Self is going to impact every area of our life, it cannot.
Chip Chipman 1:15:06
Actually, that's the gift of understanding is that you don't just see one thing and understand it. It's it's across the board. When your level of consciousness shifts, you see everything from a different place, a different church. And so that's it's incredible that way. It's so all encompassing, you know, you can't just see one, no, my marriage is better, but I hate my job. I love this conversation tonight, I was going to resist repeating something, but it's just been tickling me lately is during we probably saw some of the the conference in London, what they are presenting in. And there's a thing that's been giving me lately where when you find that place inside, and you see that it is so simple, you just have to keep going back to that, to that level of consciousness in that quiet mind. But now, it every once in a while I started thinking about this line and this rock and roll song. It's just the one line I don't know about the song. But the line is, I just dropped in to see what condition my conditions and. And that's us, like, when I thought about I started laughing because that was what I was doing. I thought I was thinking about my condition. There's my thinking. And there's a turning point in this understanding in relationships, but also just in, in who we are and how we're growing. We're what Jan was saying is so true. You start giving less and last consideration. condition. You drop in the check on less.
Rohini Ross 1:17:05
I've just so I enjoyed this conversation. And I really appreciate the simplicity that you're sharing and pointing to and I really hope that as people listen that they they take that in and recognize that they have exactly what you're talking about within themselves. And that just simply by listening, as you're saying even to a podcast, when we get quiet and listen rather than think we're going to hear our own wisdom. That's just how it works. And so I really appreciate you highlighting that and just sharing what you've seen and what you see is key in relationship and helpful but not just for relationship but for life. Yeah,
Angus Ross 1:17:45
I mean, you refer to it as simplicity. And obviously it's simple, but it's like you're you're pointing to beauty and magic, you're pointing to something that's so wonderful. And that's, that's something that you guys do in such a wonderful way. I always love listening to you, and how you see the lens through which you see the world and articulate that magic and that beauty and that simplicity. Thank you.
Chip Chipman 1:18:13
Thank you feeling genuinely mutual with you guys. We feel very blessed
Rohini Ross 1:18:20
for this time together. Thank you so much for listening to Rewilding Love. If you enjoyed this podcast, please let us know by subscribing on iTunes. And we would love for you to leave a review there
Angus Ross 1:18:38
iTunes reviews will steer people to this podcast who need help with their relationships.
Rohini Ross 1:18:44
If you would like to learn more about our work and our online Rewilding Community, please visit our website, therewilders.org.
Angus Ross 1:18:52
Thanks for listening. Join us next week.