Angus Ross
Welcome to Rewilding Love this season is with a couple on the brink of divorce.
Rohini Ross
This is episode number 22. An interview with Michael Neill
Michael Neill
I didn't realize that it was a therapy session and that I was going to be the one doing the therapy. But okay,
Rohini Ross
We were both trying to navigate our inner state of insecurity, and thinking that somehow we could take care of that by making our partner different.
Michael Neill
I've learned about these universal principles, so I'm going to be less of a jerk now.
Rohini Ross
I feel like you're hugging.
Michael Neill
Everybody's living in their own little bubble.
Angus Ross
I put myself on this thin ice,
Michael Neill
There is the equivalent of gravity in the human dimension.
Angus Ross
Hopefully, we're gonna kill each other by the end of this podcast.
Michael Neill
What if we can get back to what brought us together in the first place?
Rohini Ross
I think that is part of the conditioning that we're on the alert for disappointment. We look for where we might get hurt. We look for what could be a problem.
Rohini Ross
How could people give themselves a lot of grief and about half the people give their partner a lot of grief.
Angus Ross
And this is the game of life. Let's enjoy it as much as possible. I've
Michael Neill
Had that moment with Nina, where you just kind of go, Oh, wait. I get to be with you.
Angus Ross
You are listening to Rewilding Love with me. Angus Ross,
Rohini Ross
And me Rohini Ross
Angus Ross
Rewilding Love is a podcast about relationships.
Rohini Ross
We believe that love never disappears completely in relationships. It can always be rewilded.
Angus Ross
Listen in as we speak with our guests about how they share the understanding behind the rewilding metaphor in their work.
Rohini Ross
And how it has helped them in their relationships.
Angus Ross
Relax and enjoy the show.
Angus Ross
So you're in for a treat with is episode number 23 with Michael Neill,
Rohini Ross
It’s Episode 22. I knew you weren't good with numbers.
Angus Ross
Well, you're still in for a treat. And it is, in fact, Episode Number 22.
Rohini Ross
That's why I usually say the episode numbers at the beginning of each episode,
Angus Ross
Because you're much better with math than I am.
Rohini Ross
That´s math.
Angus Ross
Anything with numbers is math to me.
Rohini Ross
I agree that you're in for a treat with this episode with Michael Neill. Michael Neill is an internationally renowned author, speaker and thought leader who challenges the cultural mythology, the stress and struggle are a prerequisite for creativity and success. He has numerous best-selling books. And we're really grateful to have him on the show. What was interesting when I was listening to him share is when he was saying that he wasn't sure if his relationship was as amazing as it is with Nina, just out of plain luck.
Angus Ross
Yeah, I guess that kind of took me by surprise. But I know what he means.
Rohini Ross
Well, I think what's different is that he hasn't really struggled in the relationship, the way we have struggled in our of relationship. And so we know that it's not luck that we have the relationship that we have, because our luck was not good luck.
Angus Ross
Yeah.
Rohini Ross
That because he hasn't struggled perhaps in that way. He's perhaps not seeing the wisdom that's there that allows it to be the way that it is.
Angus Ross
Yeah, I guess that he probably hasn't had to? Well, I don't know. I don't like to call it work. But I guess there were years where we did had to work very hard on our relationship. And he hasn't had to perhaps go to those lengths.
Rohini Ross
Well, I think it wasn't so much that we had to work on our relationship is that the way that we were relating to each other was just so painful that it felt like work.
Angus Ross
And it looked like work because you were sort of hell bent on finding the latest technique du jour to put our marriage back together, and it was always something to do on that front.
Rohini Ross
Well, I was doing the best I could at the time.
Angus Ross
I know that now. You're definitely doing the best you could. I just wasn't very aware back then. In the way that I am now.
Rohini Ross
I think we were much more kind and compassionate with each other now. Thank goodness.
Angus Ross
Yes. Yeah, absolutely.
Rohini Ross
And so in terms of this episode of Michael, the pearls of wisdom that he's sharing that are just very natural to him and relationship can sound a lot like common sense in terms of the importance of wanting the relationship to work, the importance of being kind to each other. The importance of allowing room for differences in opinion and allowing space for each other these they’re all things; I think we would all agree. And all of those things are what makes relationships much easier. But I think what's behind them or underneath them, the foundation for them is that they come naturally from a place of security. And what was really difficult in our relationship, when we were really struggling is that we were both trying to navigate our inner state of insecurity. And thinking that somehow we could take care of that by making our partner different. So that we wouldn't have to feel so unstable within ourselves.
Angus Ross
Yeah. And then we're just projecting all of that insecurity on each other. It's your fault, and vice versa.
Rohini Ross
And so the reason that I don't want to send the message that good relationships are based on luck is, well, one because I don't think it's true in the sense that we, if it was just based on luck, we probably just would have thrown our relationship away. But two few people are struggling in relationship, I don't want them to think that they're just unlucky, and that they're either stuck with a bad relationship or just need to end the relationship, because they're unlucky in that way. But that if somebody really wants to be in a relationship, and it's difficult, that there are opportunities to see how to find that inner stability within ourselves to find that place of peace and balance within. And then we naturally show up for the relationship in ways that enhance it and bring out the best in our partner and bring out the best in ourselves.
Angus Ross
Yeah, well said. And I guess if it was down to luck, it would be a case or let's spin again.
Rohini Ross
That's right. And if I had kept spinning, I would have just ended up repeating the same thing over and over again,
Angus Ross
Yeah because there's plenty of me's out there.
Rohini Ross
Alright, let's hear from Michael. Well, Michael, thank you so much for being on our podcast. We're so grateful to have you.
Michael Neill
You are very welcome,
Rohini Ross
Angus, and I recorded a couple's intensive and they allowed us to turn it into a podcast taking excerpts from the intensive, and they came to us, you know, with divorce papers ready to go. And we took them on the journey. And since we don't know if people have listened to the whole series or not, I won't tell you exactly how it turns out. But that's, that's the premise of the podcast supporting them and navigating that whether they stay together or not seeing how the understanding supports them and
Michael Neill
Looks like one of those murder mysteries.
Angus Ross
That was the intent all along.
Rohini Ross
You were the person who is really responsible for Angus and I working together because you introduced me to the understanding of Sidney Banks and got me looking in this direction and really excited about and I had to rope Angus in along the way
Angus Ross
You did.
Michael Neill
Well, seems to have worked out based on how closely you're sitting. So
Angus Ross
I feel I would I always share what I think is a funny story. He might not, I don't know, maybe you will. Maybe you weren't Michael, okay. It might be an opportunity for me to make amends to you as well. So when I guess when Rohini first met you or when she was first working with you, you invited her to dinner and very graciously said, you know, you can bring your husband along. So I came to dinner at your house. I had no I didn't know anything about you. I hadn't met you. And we had a really wonderful time. And towards the end of the evening, you made overtures to the fact that you know, maybe she can play a game of golf. You like you invited me to have a game of golf? And I said, well, yeah, that sounds like a great idea. I can't remember exactly how the conversation unfolded. And then I even remember Nina saying, as we left, he's like, you know, you should go and play golf with Michael. And then we were walking down the driveway back to our car. And Rohini says, are you going to play golf with Michael? I said, Bob, I don't know. And she's like, I don't know, like people give their eyeteeth to play golf with Michael Neill. I'm putting it in my own words, right?
Michael Neill
Because I'm an easy win. But yes. No, no, no, no.
Michael Neill
So I like my, you know, I wrote it, you know, I had we had a wonderful evening, I thought you were really nice guy. And I thought, well, you know, maybe I better play golf with Michael Neill's like he's obviously a really important person. So this is where it's funny is that I felt right. I can't just go and play a game of golf. I'm going to have to have a practice round. I'm gonna have to find some friends to go and play with just to see where my game is at this point. So I persuaded a couple of friends to go to the Gulf Coast. I think it's up near Balboa, that Gulf Coast up.
Michael Neill
There's three of them up there. Yeah.
Angus Ross
Okay. Why don't I was probably not the fancy one.
Michael Neill
There. They're equally not fancy.
Angus Ross
Okay, so we went and played golf and I was just so despicably bad was kind of like, even the first hole. What was funny because the first hole my friend said to me, because I basically missed the ball about 20 times to get to the first. He said to me, when I got the putter out, he says, You do realize those golf clubs are probably for someone half your size. And these are golf clubs that I've found in Beverly Hills, someone have thrown out probably a woman, I don't know. Anyway, we were gonna play 18 I think I gave up after seven holes, because he just it was just a horror story. But anyways, that's why
Michael Neill
We’ve never played,
Angus Ross
I was basically doing your favorite subjected to the horror.
Michael Neill
I liked the way the story ended, because I was like, oh, shit, did I not call him back? Did I not like, what did I do wrong? But
Angus Ross
It was incumbent upon me. So that was why he probably completely forgotten as soon as I walked out the door, I don't know. But I'm like, wow, I really wish I had that opportunity to play golf with humor-based great Michael Neill that never came off. But thankfully, so to be honest,
Rohini Ross
I'm glad you got to clear your conscience,
Angus Ross
I feel so relieved that I got that off my chest.
Michael Neill
And I didn't realize that it was a therapy session and that I was going to be the one doing the therapy, but okay. I’m in.
Rohini Ross
Well, Michael, we know that you really help people wake up to the genius that they have inside of them and to step into their potential and to see positive possibilities that they might not have seen. And we work in the area of relationship. And so we're wondering, do you see what helps people to wake up to their potential, also help them in the area of relationship?
Michael Neill
It kind of can't, not. When somebody starts to see how they really work, and how everybody really works beyond the differences beyond the Mars and Venus stuff beyond that, it's, it can't not affect how you do anything. And so in relationship, if anything, it amplifies it, because there's two humans now. So when I have a better understanding of what's going on with humans, it's not just I'm understanding myself more unable to work with myself more gracefully. But it does tend to map out. It doesn't mean everything's, oh, I've learned about these universal principles on a, so I'm going to be less of a jerk now. I mean, maybe. But they're, you know, there's a few more variables.
Rohini Ross
Absolutely. And so in terms of, you know, we do work in the same area in terms of that understanding of looking at how we work as human beings and looking at what's universal. But how would you speak to them in this moment, and I know it can change, you know, from day to day, moment to moment, but what do you think is important for people to know about what's universal?
Michael Neill
Well, for me, the first thing that was probably important to know was that there were things that were universal. I mean, I really did think it was 100%, idiosyncratic, like everybody's living in their own little thought bubble. And never the twain shall meet. But somehow, we managed to not kill each other a lot. And, and so it was a bit of a shock to me to realize, and I think the first insight I had into it was that subjectivity was an objective fact. So I was thinking, well, no, it's all subjective universes. And then I went, Oh, wait, but that's universal. So starting to see that there are principles behind how we work, that there is the equivalent of gravity in the human dimension. I think that's huge. Because now there's not a lot more important than that. Like, if I can see that there are actually things that will be as true for my kids as they are for me, for my partners there for me, for complete strangers is there for me, that's really valuable to see more about. And then once you do start to see, there's a kind of a simplicity to it. And that's nice, because generally speaking relationships are breathtakingly complex. Right? It's like, Oh, well, you know it because of my upbringing and their upbringing. And this, this thing that happened to that will never get past them this. And so another thing that I just think helps settled people is to realize this might not be 30 years of therapy worth of trouble. Right? This might not be, well, if I'm willing to put in the years, I can make it less shitty, you know, to kind of see Oh, wait, what if it were simpler than that? What if we can get back to what brought us together in the first place? And let that be the basis for our ongoing relationship? Almost like a reset, but not a sort of a willpower? reset? Okay. I will pretend I don't hate you and you pretend you don't hate me. And let's see. It goes, right, like an actual reset.
Angus Ross
Yeah.
Michael Neill
You know, there's a wonderful scene in the movie. I think it was called once the one that there was that big song falling, falling slowly about the two musicians who were loving this. This one did
Rohini Ross
An Irish movie.
Michael Neill
Yes. Yeah. Check or something.
Rohini Ross
Yeah. Okay.
Michael Neill
And where he, he sees this girl across the room. And he's just taken buyer. And then he realizes it's his girlfriend. Like, and I've had that moment with Nina and and where you just kind of you go, Oh, wait, I get to be with you. And that to be able to find that again. It's kind of amazing. Like when you hear about how relationships are supposed to go. I remember working with a client who was a kind of a music star. And he was in his 40s. And he decided that maybe he should think about settling down. You know, he'd been a bit exactly what you'd expect somebody in that jump to be like, and so I said, Okay, great. You know, so tell me about your, your perfect relationship. And he couldn't even go there. And I said, Okay, so imagine it's a year from now. And you've met somebody, and it is amazing. Tell me about it. He said, well, we don't fight all the time. And we still have sex sometimes. And I'm like, oh, my God, this is the best you can imagine. I'm not shocked you haven't gotten here. But I think that's almost to protect ourselves. That's the expectation that a lot of us sit in relationship with. And it's disastrous, because, you know, you're just looking for trouble, literally.
Rohini Ross
But I love that point in terms of looking for trouble, because that's so often I feel like you're hugging the mic.
Angus Ross
You made me so paranoid about not picking up my voice. I was trying to get close to the mic.
Michael Neill
Ladies and gentleman, Angus Rohini will be back in a moment. We just need to take a few things out. And he'll be back to tell you more great advice about how you can have a wonderful relationship and come back.
Angus Ross
Hopefully, we won't kill each other by the end of this podcast, right?
Michael Neill
Well, it would be awkward.
Rohini Ross
What you said about how we go looking for trouble. I think that happens so often in relationship. And I think that is part of the conditioning that we were on the alert for disappointment, we look for where we might get hurt, we look for what could be a problem. And we try to be proactive about that. And innocently and trying to make things work, we end up only looking at what doesn't work. And that really gets us into trouble.
Angus Ross
Yeah, I think we habituate ourselves towards that trouble, we create a narrative around trouble. And then we just continue to play on a loop. Maybe, you know, after a while, we look in that direction.
Michael Neill
And the dead giveaway is I knew it. It's like, well, yeah, you did. Cuz you created it. Like, you know you were waiting for it. There's like, what was probably like a blip in somebody else's your partner's day turns into proof that all relationships with you are fundamentally doomed. And we just the speed with which we go from a bad conversation to a hopeless relationship are extraordinary. Yeah,
Angus Ross
I know that feeling is like, wow, I put myself on this thin ice. No one else but me.
Michael Neill
Well, either way, actually, about half the people give themselves a lot of grief and about half the people give their partner a lot of grief. Right. And it's like, No, I'm pretty sure there are two of you. Two of you does include you.
Rohini Ross
Absolutely. So has there been an insight that you've had that's been particularly helpful to you and your relationship?
Michael Neill
No, it is really funny because I am often very hesitant to talk about relationships, because I've kind of only had one which I guess is meant to be like this idol in the cultural thing. And but in another way, I don't have a lot of experience. I've been with Nina for 32 years. I mean, that's kind of it. I remember when we met, we had a conversation about ones and twos and it was not toilet humor based. But that we kind of could see that. There's two levels of connection and relationship. There's the inner connection, which is what we all crave and love, which we call the one like if there's got to be the one. But then the two which is how do our lives fit together? How do our values fit together? How do what I would now call how to the fruit of our thinking jibe is also relevant. It's not fundamental, but it is relevant. And so we kind of remember, I remember us having a couple conversations, we were just kind of marveled at the fact that, you know, we were ones who also had tattoos, like we fit on multiple levels. Now, that's not to say that, you know, she still doesn't like football and movies about things that blow up. And I still think Real Housewives is crap. But fundamentally were good. So that was, that was kind of a cool thing to see. I think a second thing that that was really, just so helpful to see was that the worst advice I now can see that I think couples are ever given. And I totally came into my relationship with this is never go to bed upset with your partner, which means you have the most important conversations in your relationship, when you're tired and mad at each other. That's just bad design. I don't care who you are, that is a terrible idea. Now, I didn't know that. But I started to see it. And then I started to see it outside of my relationship as well. And then I think maybe the most surprising one that has made the biggest difference in what I thought was already a great relationship, but it's made it that much better was something George Pransky. And it was worked with, with all of us, said in the Relationship Handbook, when he said the purpose of a relationship is to enjoy each other's company. And I remember reading that and rereading it. And going back and checking that I'd read it right. Because I definitely I had been told so many times you come together for learning and growth, right? The purpose of you know, or, or Well, you just come together to raise children, and then the rest of you sort of figure out or, and it was one of those things that was so stupid, true. It was like, don't like how did I not get that? Right? But then when that becomes real, and you go, well, hell, I'm with you to enjoy your company. So a lot of the things that I would bring up that are very important, are not going to help me enjoy your company. But some are. So it's neither ignored everything, nor talk about everything. It's you just kind of see, you know what, there are some things that are worth reconciling, and there are a bunch of things that never need to be reconciled.
Angus Ross
I love the idea of having enjoyment being the North Star in a relationship and in in all aspects, I guess of this work that we do, I often use the metaphor of life being kind of like being like this glorious computer game, where there obviously there are challenges where we get to grow and learn and it can get really you can get hung up, I feel and I feel like I have focused on that in the past that it's all growth and learning. But the caveat should always be is like, if this is a game, this is the game of life, let's enjoy it as much as possible. That should be probably the main motive to play this game. I love seeing it on those terms. Yeah,
Michael Neill
and there's a there's a, I used to teach it in, in some of our success seminars about when people have goals, there's always an unspoken second half of the goal. And to me, the only second half of any goal statement should be as a part of my wonderful life. Yeah. Right. So yeah, do I want to make this work? Yes, as a part of my wonderful life. Right? And if it's not as a part of my wonderful life, then who cares?
Rohini Ross
Think it really takes the pressure off in terms of I know, for me, that statement, I would have almost guilt around just enjoying my life. Like, there must be my word of this. There's work to be done here. What do we doing? And, and to see that as just thought his belief is conditioning not true. And that there's something much deeper unfolding, that does have the feeling of happiness, contentment, and joy. And that it's not, that statement isn't really just about sort of personal comfort and satisfaction. It's really aligned with what is universal and impersonal. Who we are. And so seeing how that lined up for me was real relief because I thought I had to work to get there. I had to improve myself to get there. And instead it's like no enjoying your life. As simple as that sounds, is aligning with the simplicity of just what's unfolding naturally.
Michael Neill
You know, it this is a slightly sideway story because it's about when we had our first baby. But we had to be in relationship to have the baby I guess so it still counts. It's still about relationships. But no, it is fundamental to this. I think so I had grown up not really wanting kids, but I knew when Nina and I got together, we were gonna have kids, it was just how long could I put her off. And then she got pregnant and I wasn't particularly looking forward to it. I mean, I got it, I accepted it. I was okay with it. But I wasn't looking forward to it. Because I all I thought about when you talk babies was vomit and sleeplessness and I already did sleepless vomiting, I didn't need another reason, like, coming up professionally mind. But when Oliver was born, they handed him to me. And I fell so deeply in love in less than 30 seconds. And I suddenly went, Oh, I've been watching the movie with the wrong soundtrack. Like I had seen the realities of having a child, which are messy, and involve sleeplessness, and money, and things that didn't sound attractive to me. But I didn't realize that the soundtrack was so fun that you didn't care. Like I don't know if you've ever seen the movie, there's two, there's, there's Attack of the Killer Tomatoes is obviously a classic. But the other one, there's another horror movie about a tire. I think it's just called tire exclamation. And literally, it's this Renegade tire that Chase. And it's so stupid, except that the music actually makes it seem like this tire this tomato are scary and threatening when it's like that in reverse. So we have these ideas about relationships, we have this soundtrack, to the difficult bits that we are going to bump heads that we aren't going to agree about everything that we are going to have different ideas that we are going to change over time. All of that is actually true. But if the soundtrack of love and this sounds so hokey, now that I'm saying it out loud, but if you get the feeling, right, none of that matters. It is all doable with if you don't have the soundtrack, you can have some pretty nice things going on. And it's miserable.
Rohini Ross
We have some questions that we'd love to ask you. And they're just kind of like impro questions and kind of a trip down memory lane related to your relationship. Are you open to playing
Michael Neill
I'm open to asking them?
Rohini Ross
Yes, so you can
Michael Neill
See what happen.. ?
Angus Ross
Good answer!
Rohini Ross
You can decline any of them. What's one of the fondest memories in your relationship?
Michael Neill
Well, the first one that came to mind, I there are many. I remember when she turned down the aisle at our wedding. And I just, it was all I could do to not burst out laughing. Because I just was so overwhelmed with love. And the thought that she was much shorter and flats than I expected her to be like, but it was something about the kind of juxtaposition of I wasn't expecting it. Like it wasn't like we had been kept apart until I mean we be kept apart for 24 hours. But it was there was something about that that was such a felt like such a good portent was my mother in law said you looked like the cat who got the cream. I remember that. So that was that. I mean, there's obviously many, but that was the first one that came to mind.
Rohini Ross
That's lovely.
Angus Ross
That's brilliant. What is one of the funniest memories in your relationship?
Michael Neill
Okay, this road is slightly weird because it is completely about our relationship but actually wasn't between us. So when Nina so we were living in London, and during pregnancy there are a lot of foods you're not meant to eat because they're potentially dangerous for the baby. And so when Oliver was born, I went to a place we really like rustling Hill deli, I don't know we got married at rustling Hill church and there was a just an amazing deli nearby and, and so I went in and I said what are the foods that pregnant women can't have that are dangerous? And she and I'll say I'll have one of each. And it didn't occur to me that she would think that I was trying to kill my wife. So there is horrible, awful conflict in the deli and I have to explain Oh, no, she just had the baby. This is a gift.
Rohini Ross
This is hilarious, I love that. I love that. The next one is what is a difficult time that you've had in your relationship and what helped you to get through it.
Michael Neill
I always want to answer questions like that was what helped us get through it. And I get this isn't a helpful answer, but it is the answer. I picked really well. Right? I am with somebody who wants it to work. So there's a sort of a, and I want it to work. So there is a built in goodwill component. Like we're inclined to figure it out. There. I don't know, I can't speak for her. But I haven't questioned being in the relationship. Since maybe the first year, like, which was 32 years ago. Now, I've questioned a lot of choices we've made. And you know, life happens, you know, we had we had times with the kids that were difficult. We had times with health challenges that were difficult. We had times with money that were difficult. So yeah, no, we have a life too. But there was never, it never felt to me. Like one of the options was, let's just not be together.
Rohini Ross
Mm hmm.
Michael Neill
So I, that's the way I've come to understand commitment as a meaningful phrase, and not as a duty because I hate the idea of commitment. And especially when we got married, it was like, you know, just don't make me say it's forever. Like, I kind of knew it would be like, I know me, I'm a team animal. Right. But I couldn't stand the thought of that. But actually, what I've now come to see is what commitment is, just means that when the going gets tough. We're not going anywhere. Like our question is, how do we make this work? Not? Should we shouldn't we? And that takes so much off your plate. And that takes so much off your mind. Now, and I also think that's a that's one of those ones where it takes one to tango. I don't think you both necessarily have to think that. But you do. Or you're just setting yourself up for a world of worry. And doubt.
Rohini Ross
I think that's a really helpful answer. Because I know for myself when I stopped questioning whether I wanted to be in the relationship or not. And of course, when I would get into low moods and things would look really difficult when I added, do I want to be in the relationship? Of course, the answer was no moment. But when that came off the table, you're right, there was so much more space opened up to actually figuring out how to navigate whatever the difficult challenge was. And I didn't realize what a toll that was taking on our relationship. And when we work with couples, one of the things that usually is present when they come and work with us and do an intensive is that they both want it to work, they just don't know how to make it work. And when that's how they come to us, we feel very confident that we can support them because they want to make it work. They might not have a clue they might feel hopeless about it. But just that desire and wanting is such a game changer.
Michael Neill
Yeah. And it's an I don't know if this makes sense. But it's a non-neurotic desire. It's not a, I've got to make this work or I'm a failure. It's no, I actually want to make this work. This is the best thing I've got in my life. I you know, and that doesn't get old theory, that that. That doesn't mean there aren't going to be challenges. That doesn't mean it's going to be smooth sailing. That doesn't mean there might not be times where I go, man, it'd be easier being on my own. What it means is I've never taken those thoughts seriously for a minute.
Angus Ross
It's beautiful. It's like in the work that we do working with couples, if only we had a goodwill plugin that we could install in their operating system. And in a sense, I guess that's what we're trying to do to reacquaint themselves with that, you know, their innate natural state on that level?
Michael Neill
I think that's nice, because I think I think that's right. I mean, it's not the words that I was using, but it speaks to it is if the goodwill is intact, I don't think there's a problem. And by the way, that might still mean you don't stay together. I don't know that I believe that every couple should stay together. But the difference between breaking up with goodwill, and breaking up without it is really big. So I don't think there's a version of relationship where goodwill isn't critical. Exactly.
Angus Ross
Yeah. Yeah, we
Rohini Ross
Will always say that we're not attached to the outcome. But we are hoping that each person gets more connected with that natural state of love inside of themselves and makes decisions from that place.
Michael Neill
I remember reading something years and years. I mean, Nina and I were probably together because we've always been together but really early before I thought about stuff like this, that talked about that. If you're leaving a relationship because you're unhappy, you're going to create the same relationship with the next person. If you're leaving a relationship, from a place of just clarity, with still love in good feeling, you're going to be fine. I mean, there's there is a sort of an inner guide. And I do I one of the, you know, I don't talk about relationships much but when I do one of the things I noticed is people feel embarrassed to admit they divorced or they split up with somebody or, and it's like no, that's, that's not you don't get bonus points for being in a crappy relationship longer. What you get if you if you can get back to the love and the good feeling and the goodwill is such a gorgeous foundation for life. But there's no, there's no shame on it. It's one of the reasons I probably don't go scream relationships from the rooftops. I don't know how much of what I've got is luck. I just don't. I mean, I don't care either. Like, it's luck. I'm all in. Right. But I remember we went for, I think for our 29th anniversary when we went to Vegas, back when one could do something like that. And, and I remember, you know, people would find out. It was our anniversary, and they go oh, what's your secret? What's your secret? And separately, because we talked about it later Nina. And I both basically said the same thing. I think she quoted Dr. Laura. But she said, choose wisely treat kindly. And I said something like, find the right person and be kind, like, like, so we separately had the same answer, which is Yeah, it's not. I can love anybody, but I can't be in relationship with anybody. So there is a there is a choose wisely part. But the tree kindly just goes across the board.
Angus Ross
Or you say you don't often talk about relationship. I mean, I would say you would the probably the standard bearer to talk about relationship more that you shared thus far. And anyway. And I would encourage you not to get into the relationship field because we'd be in trouble.
Michael Neill
You're golden. I would but my wife won't let me. So we're fine
Angus Ross
Thanks to Nina. So anyway, next question. How do you divide domestic labor in your relationship?
Michael Neill
Well, we're kind of bizarrely old-fashioned in that sense. So it's interesting. When we got together, we both worked and Nina made more money. And I did you know, I was, I was an actor, for God's sake. You know, she had a real job. And so when we had babies, right, and the dynamic change, it just became apparent. I remember you remember that opening scene from Four weddings in a funeral, where they wake up late. And Hugh Grant is just going around the room and fuck was Nina in the morning going to work? And I just one morning with Yeah, this isn't right. And I said, let's just give it a go. Let's see if I can bring in enough money that you don't need to work. And let's do it. And her memory may differ, but we didn't talk about it again for years. And then I just remember one night, we were having dinner. And it seemed to me to come out of nowhere, but maybe she'd been thinking about it for a while. And she said Is this okay? And I said what? And this is so un-pc. But she said you being the man and me being the woman. I said Actually, I kind of love it. And so we have that kind of a sweat. I go out and hunt buffalo. There's the meat. Like she wanted that. Nina has for 30 plus years made a home. And it's an amazing home. I mean, you guys have visited the home. It's like it's been in many different houses. But it's always been a home. Now, I am sure she would love it if I did more around the house. Right. Don't get me wrong, and I don't do nothing. I mean, I do my best. And but I'll flip the story as well, early on. And I don't know if she knows this, like I've told the story, but I don't know if I've ever told it to her. So okay, here goes. There was a time we moved to America. And I basically was having to reset my career. So I didn't really have an acting career over here. I'd had one back there. And my coaching was built around trainings that I did over there which I wasn't doing over here. So I was scrambling. financially. We were coming up on we either had just had Klara or we're getting ready to and Nina asked, you know, hey, I really need more help around the house. And I don't come off well in this story. I
Angus Ross
thanks for your bravery.
Michael Neill
I had read in Seven Habits of Highly Effective People a story where Stephen Covey said he, when he was a professor, he went to the head of his of the school and said, I need you to come in and sort this problem out. And the guy showed him his calendar and said, Okay, here, here's what I do. Which of these things would you like me to abandon so that I can help you with your problem? and Stephen Covey was duly chastened and went and sorted his own problem up muggings here, thanks. What a great idea. I'm going to write down everything I do, and show her and say which of these things I do for our family. It was horrible, because when I really broke it down, I probably spent one or two hours a day at that point, doing stuff for our family, and about 10 hours a day worrying about it. And so I never obviously shared the results of my focus group. But I did start helping out more around the house. So it's, I don't want to suggest it. It's completely one sided.
Rohini Ross
Well, at least you had the wisdom to look before you said that,
Michael Neill
yeah, I'm grateful or I might be one of the before pictures for you.
Angus Ross
So when we do the bio at the end, we can now say, say, Michael Neill, international coach and trainer extraordinaire Now, aka buffalo Hunter.
Michael Neill
One does what one can.
Rohini Ross
How our finances handled in your relationship?
Michael Neill
Reasonably well. It became obvious to me early, early, early, like in the first three years we were together, that most of the financial head-butting was overstuffed, that actually didn't particularly matter. It was like Nina liked clothes. And I like books. And trust me, when I say I like books, I spent as much on books as she did on clothes, I read books. And, and so we just decided, Okay, let's have three accounts, a joint account, which is all the household expenses, but then at the beginning of every month, and we've done this, since I think we were married in 1990. So at the beginning of every month, we pay ourselves a salary into our own accounts. So I have no interest in what she uses her money for, she has no interest. Well, I don't know if she has been, she doesn't bug me about what I spend my money on. And then there's the joint money. And it's just enough, like, it's not extravagant, it's never we've done this when we were making almost no money through times where we've made a lot of money. And it's just we know, we get a salary at the beginning of each month for us. And that's our money, and we do whatever we want with it. And, you know, I mean, sometimes I take chunks of mine and take her up to dinner. I mean, that's, but I do that because I want to, and that's always worked really well. The big stuff, you know, we do we go through together, and that works. variably It's sometimes it's very smooth, sometimes we just have different priorities at different times. But again, it's always in context. You know, when the only times it's problematic, or when we lose context, and it started seeming like a more important than the goodwill.
Rohini Ross
Yeah. You know, that's key,
Michael Neill
you know, and yeah, it's, I think of that as bog standard normal. Like, I don't, I don't give us crap about that. It's like, yeah, you know what, I
Angus Ross
never heard that expression
Rohini Ross
Sound sounds very English.
Angus Ross
I obviously lived it too long. I was just thinking, good job. I have such a prominent forehead, because we certainly did a lot of head butting early on. Anyway, next question. So what was the biggest misunderstanding you woke up from in your relationship?
Michael Neill
I don't know if this is the real answer, because I honestly, I'm not quite processing the question. I don't think like that. But the thing that came to mind immediately when you said it, is I think I thought we had to agree with each other more. Like, I think I thought it was important that we thought the same about stuff. And I've come to see that there are very few places where that's important. Not that it's not important at all. It matters around the kids. It matters around general life direction stuff. But the details couldn't matter less to my mind. And I can see how if it looked like the details mattered, it would be really hard to make a relationship work.
Rohini Ross
Getting caught up in the weeds.
Angus Ross
The devil is in the details.
Michael Neill
Yeah, but I think I think in this instance, particularly that's True. I just sort of thought that's how it should be. And when it became obvious it wasn't that way. That looked problematic to me for a little while until it didn't until it looked like well, but hang on. So what?
Angus Ross
Yeah, I think that's huge.
Rohini Ross
Yeah. So what's one of your favorite things that Nina does for you?
Michael Neill
You know, she has always been breathtakingly supportive of me having hobbies. Like I always hear about, you know, you know, wives telling their husband, oh, you're off to go bowling with the boys instead of being home with me. She's always been the opposite. I suppose I could take that personally. But she
Angus Ross
came out of the house.
Michael Neill
Hang on a second. But I've, I feel so loved and understood. When she encourages me to go out and play golf, encourages me to spend money on stuff that's really just for me. Now, you know, she doesn't do it foolishly. I mean, obviously, it's within the context of the larger relationship. But I think I just have always felt so guilty about doing things for me. And the fact that she has not just never given me shit about it, but goes the other way and actively supports me in it. I don't know that anything makes me feel more loved.
Angus Ross
It's lovely.
Rohini Ross
so heartwarming
Angus Ross
it is.
Angus Ross
Well, what is the least favorite thing that Nina does?
Michael Neill
Your hearts warm enough?
Angus Ross
It's good cop, bad
Michael Neill
Least favorite thing? You know what? Nah..
Rohini Ross
I think cuz the next one was if you have any deal-breakers, and I think that's a no to in relationship, because you sound pretty committed.
Angus Ross
Well, how do you keep physical intimacy alive in your relationship?
Michael Neill
We've always made time for each other. Like we even when we had little kids, we had date night. You know, it might not have been very ambitious. But it was there was never a time where we're like, we'll spend time together later. Right? I mean, obviously, any given day, but it's always been a priority that we hang. And one of the things that was so helpful to see, and I don't know if this is true in every relationship, but this is certainly true in ours. The more we're together, the better we get on, the less we're together, the more we butt heads. So when I traveled a lot, the first week back would often be problematic. And one day, I just realized that, oh, oh, this isn't a real problem. Finally, coming to light, this is a function of when we don't spend time together, it takes us a little while to reconnect. So, so knowing that it's obvious that we need so we've had tea time, since we were together, like four o'clock, pretty much every day, we have tea, if I'm in the same country, sometimes it's just a cup of tea. Sometimes it's tea and Scrabble. You know, sometimes it's tea in a chat. But so even if I've been full on busy at work all day, we have tea, and we'll make a point of having dinner together and we'll make a point of, you know, so I think that's probably it, even though that isn't about physical intimacy, that's the foundation for it. You know, and if we don't do that, then it's hidden Miss, like, you know, but we do that. So it's not.
Angus Ross
And then the big question here, Darjeeling or oil gray.
Michael Neill
Do you know what we're just English Breakfast PG tip.
Angus Ross
DJ tips can be anything Oh,
Michael Neill
I mean, some day I was dropped off some Yukon Gold and it wasn't often it wasn't PG tips.
Rohini Ross
You're a renegade having your matcha tea.
Angus Ross
That would be considered far too exotic. Back home now.
Rohini Ross
The last question is, if you could only say one thing to Nina, what would you like to say?
Michael Neill
love you more.
Angus Ross
Brilliant.
Rohini Ross
Thank you so much, Michael for playing along with this answers are really touching and I think also really helpful for people to hear the deeper message behind it.
Angus Ross
Yeah, no, thank you so much. Thank you. I actually wanted to also, I didn't get to say this earlier, but I feel like that dinner party, really for me Now looking back, I remember another feature of that dinner party, which is now so wonderful for me to reflect on. Because the inside out revolution is such an iconic book. And, and I, I, you know, I meet people all the time who just wax lyrical about it and how it's affected their lives. But at that particular dinner party, I don't know if you even remember this, but you allowed us to sort of be this sort of mini focus group, because you've got the artwork out for this book, but he had just written, you wanted to get feedback to sort of see what, what do you think of this image? Or what do you think of that image, and it was the inside-out revolution. So why don't know, especially this moment of a historical moment for us to be a part of.
Michael Neill
well, thank you. I still I still love the title and where it's been. It's been ripped off and copied in about 24 languages. So they didn't all use the same artwork, but a lot of them do.
Angus Ross
As I say, it's a wonderful book. And you know, we recommend it, for sure.
Michael Neill
Thanks, yeah. Nice to see you.
Rohini Ross
I think, you know, maybe soon they'll be in-person things happening again.
Angus Ross
But are we going to be allowed to hug that's the other thing I think I think everybody's gonna get together is going to have a whole new social flavor to it. And we want to know,
Michael Neill
I don't know, I just don't think elbow bumps are really going to catch on.
Angus Ross
And, yeah, that's not really happening for me,
Rohini Ross
not in LA anyway. Well, Michael, thank you. Is there anything else you want to add? Before we finish up?
Michael Neill
No, I, you know, I guess if, if I was gonna it would be relationships really can be a just such a core part of being having a life. And I don't know that they need to be in the sense of a traditional, you know, one-to-one intimate thing. But certainly, like, if you're like that guy who's like, well, we don't fight all the time and still have sex sometimes. Like, it doesn't have to be like that.
Rohini Ross
It's okay to set the bar higher and not be disappointed. Yeah, well, thank you. Michael, we are so grateful. And we will include your full bio and everything so people know how to get in contact with you. But thanks so much for participating. And please give our lives to Nina.
Michael Neill
You're very welcome
Angus Ross
Yeah. Thank you so much, Michael
Rohini Ross
Thank you so much for listening to Rewilding Love. If you enjoyed this podcast, please let us know by subscribing on iTunes. And we would love for you to leave a review there.
Angus Ross
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Rohini Ross
If you would like to learn more about our work and our online Rewilding Community, please visit our website, therewilders.org
Angus Ross
Thanks for listening. Join us next week.