Rohini Ross
This is Episode 16, your questions answered. Thank you so much. For those of you who sent in your questions for your questions answered episode, or episode, we don't know how many episodes there's going to be yet. But we really are grateful for your feedback and for things that you wanted clarification on. And so we will be answering them today. And I do need to give a caveat that the responses that we're giving are our opinions. And they're for educational purposes only. We're not providing any mental health recommendations. And so we just wanted to make that clear. Before we jump into the questions that have come in, I just wanted to give a little bit of context to the podcast work with Angus. And I don't know, I think we've talked about it at some point in the episodes with Alicia and Mateo. But I really appreciate your I don't know if willingness is the right word. To describe you as willing, but you're humoring me is that a better way of saying it in terms of doing the podcast because this isn't your favorite medium for working.
Angus Ross
It is not my favorite medium for working. And I think that apart from anything else, it kind of reminds me of having to be glued to a desk, when I was a school kid. feeling like I can't move eight hours on end or whatever it was, I'm sure that sounds quite Dickensian in terms of how I may have thought or how I may think about schooling. I don't know how many hours were actually were glued to a desk, but it felt like forever. And I and just something about being stuck in a sound booth. It feels a little bit claustrophobic, which is kind of interesting, because that's something that you generally have difficulty with.
Rohini Ross
But for me, I think it's about having to sit still in this sounds but soundbooth and somehow find a good feeling in that I want to do is go play outside. So thank you for playing with me here. And I do think that listeners really appreciate your voice your perspective. And I know that I do. And I don't think people would listen if it was just me to be quite honest. And I think part of it is that we kind of work because of our work, we have to designate a day or two sometimes to focusing on this. So if it was a case where I could go or just spend an hour doing the podcast or an hour or two, that would probably be comfortable for me. But the fact that we have to spend a whole day today doing it gets a little bit frightening for me. So we wanted to give you a little bit of behind the scenes context as to why I was trying to think about ways to make it more fun for Angus so that it would be less of a torturous experience. And one of the ideas that I came up with was to see if we could make a game out of it. And this was inspired by something. It's a story that you told me about how we out of a levels or something and you got a job working in the summer at a charity. Do you remember that story?
Angus Ross
Yeah, I don't know, at what point I think I was a little bit further on, and I probably was in between jobs and had no money basically. And my brother was working for a charity. He was running a charity at the time. And he got me a job working in their mailroom where I guess you're opening up on envelopes. And opening up the donations that people had sent in. And so I started working in that mailroom. And it was with a lot of elderly folk. And at this point, I will be considering myself a young folk, maybe I would be now elderly, for how I would categorize people. But these were basically a bunch of old ladies who were opening up envelopes, all babies that are your age now. But it was just so boring. The atmosphere was so boring. And then it was just me and this other guy. We were just kind of part timers as it were. And we were both bored out of our minds. And so I came up with this game where you could kind of create this talent situation where there are all these different ways and means that people would donate. So let's say for argument's sake, that would be there all these different banks. So there'd be a Barclays Bank, that'd be a net West Bank, there would be various different institutions financial that you know that this is how they would choose to donate, some people would send cash in. And then there were things like there'll be building societies, there are all sorts of different ways anyway, get the picture. So I came up with this idea of giving a point system, so every kind of form of payment would be given a certain amount of points. And so you get, let's say, five points for NatWest. And you get three points for building society. And then there were certain situations where you'd get automatic victory. So we'd give ourselves like 100 envelopes each. And then we would do this whole points thing.
Rohini Ross
Did the elderly ladies play this game with you?
Angus Ross
They thought we were around the twist. They would look at us with, you know, with amusement, I guess would be the best way to describe it. But so what was kind of where it got really funny is that one of the stipulations that I made that there was automatic victory, if you had a Coots bank check. So Coots bank, typically, I think in those days, I'm sure it's completely different now. But I think there was no sort of spending limit or no, you couldn't, I can't remember it was basically a bank for rich folks. And it was kind of very considered very elitist. So if anyone opened up or opened up an envelope, and you found a cute bat check could spank checking it, it would be automatic victory. Over all these elderly folk, every now and again, the Coots bank check would come up on boys being boys and us being pretty young and boisterous. We would literally be screaming at the top of our lungs, and sometimes dancing on the table, because we get very competitive. These elderly ladies would just think we are just crazy. But it made the either the two or three weeks that we were there just fly by and it made it really fun. So I guess that's what you're using as an example. But how do we make it like that for little Angus, who needs to be entertained? Right, can't sit still.
Rohini Ross
One other question I have is, was there anything that the victor got it was it just the pleasure of victory,
Angus Ross
I think it was just the pleasure of victory. But it was really exciting. It's really fun. We get really competitive.
Rohini Ross
And the other thing that I wanted to mention is that I think part of what makes you so amazing and wonderful in my mind is that you just have a really creative brain. And it loves to be you love to be inspired and have your brain working in big picture ways. And so this isn't necessarily the best format, in terms of how your brain functions. But it's pretty amazing in terms of coming up with creative ideas of the way you speak about things. So that's also why it's important for it to be fun for you.
Angus Ross
Yeah, I guess. Sounds a bit selfish, but I feel like I have to be entertained. And I always find this entertaining. For the most part I do. It's just, it's just the idea that I have to spend a whole day sitting in a chair in a sound booth. And showing up and being creative. It can be a little bit daunting, at first, at first run. But yeah, no, I'm here. Now I'm doing it. Let's see where it goes.
Rohini Ross
So I'm not necessarily the most creative person at coming up with games, but my idea was to have I don't know if competition is the right word, but we know that Angus, and I noticed when we were listening back to the recordings that we both have a habit of saying, you know, more than we would like. And so we've decided that we will see who gets to 10. You knows first and maybe that's too many. Should it be 10 or less?
Angus Ross
I can't do 10. Okay, I'd like to think that we're gonna be quite conscious of it now.
Rohini Ross
I know. So we might never get to 10
Angus Ross
you might not but who knows? Okay, that count? That really knows. You knows.
Rohini Ross
That's right. So we thought that the first person rather than it being a victory, the first person that gets to 10 you knows has to do a forfeit.
Angus Ross
And lots of forfeit.
Rohini Ross
I don't know.
Angus Ross
Didn't you say a truth or dare? before?
Rohini Ross
Yeah, you declined that.
Angus Ross
Okay. Well, I'm willing to play the game.
Rohini Ross
Something embarrassing.
Angus Ross
Yeah, it always has to involve something embarrassing. That's what I don't like, but anyway, I'll go along with it. You know, I said, You know, I was about to say, you know, he's saying I didn't. I started to say it. Yeah, I think it's gonna be difficult. For me anyway. So we'll see. Maybe I'll say more arms now.
Rohini Ross
We're gonna up the ante and include items in the next one. Yeah,
Angus Ross
I guess that will be the next level of this game. So now I'm trying to say anything,
Rohini Ross
Might be a very quiet podcast.
Quincy
Hi, my name is Quincy, I have been loving your podcast. And I think the concepts you are sharing truly are so beneficial on all realms of life and relationship, then, I have heard some of these concepts before, from a life coach that I talked to occasionally. And I'm curious where the origin of them comes from, like you discuss going to a workshop together? And if there's a pioneer of it, or any of that information, because I just think it's amazing concept. And I would love to learn a little bit more about it.
Rohini Ross
Quincy, thank you so much for your question. And yes, there is a pioneer behind the understanding that we're sharing. And I would say that Angus and I are inspired by this understanding. So I can't guarantee that we're sticking to it 100%, but the pioneer of it is a man named Sydney Banks. And he lived in Canada. actually close to where I spent my high school years on Vancouver Island. And then Salt Spring Island, and his name is... Did I say his name already?
Angus Ross
No, he didn't get too worried about saying, you know,
Rohini Ross
His name is I think I did say Sydney Banks
Angus Ross
Well, it's worth repeating. Yes, I think you did,
Rohini Ross
Okay. And he had this incredible mystical experience. And based on that experience, and what he saw during that time, he then started sharing what he saw with people, first, just locally, anyone that would listen to him. And then after a period of time, people started coming to him from all over the world. And eventually, psychologists and psychiatrists started to meet with him. And he really thought that he could help them make a really big difference in the world, he saw that psychology was one of the ways that people could really have their consciousness impacted. And so the understanding has been called many things over the years, I think it was first called health realization, psychology of mind. And then it became known as the three principles. And I guess it's still known as the three principles. I don't know if it has another name at this point in time. But the name isn't important. It's really what was being pointed to, which is that we all have this innate wellbeing inside of us, and many spiritual traditions point to that. So I also want to be clear that Sidney banks had this incredible mystical experience, but he's certainly not the only person that has been looking in this direction. There're many spiritual traditions that also would point to that, but that is the understanding that we've been following and trained in and our mentors are George and Linda Pransky.
Angus Ross
Yeah. And I feel like we're in total alignment with the teaching of Sidney banks, in so many ways, because he's pointing to truth is pointing to universal truth. And I think, yeah, sure, everybody probably has their own spin on how they articulate that and how they put that out into the world. But I think when it actually boils itself down, I feel like I'm in total alignment with what he shared initially. And yeah, that's how I would view an answer that question.
Rohini Ross
So we'll put some additional resources in the Notes for this episode, so that you can look into it further. And, you know, Angus, and I just really love the metaphor of rewilding, how we can all be naturally wild and back to our true nature. And so we're using that terminology, but as Angus said, we do feel that it's in alignment with what he was pointing to. All right, Angus, here's a question for you to start with. How can you be neutral about behavior in your partner that you really don't like? A few common examples I've heard from women recently. Your partner watches porn. You don't like it and ask him not to do it. But he carries on. Your partner doesn't help with childcare or housework. You asked him to but he refuses. Your partner criticizes your appearance, you get upset, but he continues to do it. Your partner doesn't contribute to paying the bills and doesn't try to earn any money. Your partner goes out all the time and you don't spend any time together. In all cases, let's assume that you're unhappy about this behavior. But your partner either refuses to discuss it, discusses it, but refuses to change or agrees to change but then doesn't follow through and practice. Surely you just need to accept you can't change him that you're incompatible and split up. Isn't the alternative that you stay together and resent the behavior you don't like essentially denying your own needs in relationship? Surely someone stays in a relationship in which their wishes aren't considered or respected only because they don't realize that something better is possible. Wouldn't it be more, more helpful to teach women that it's okay to have needs and preferences, rather than encouraging them to be neutral about things they're not happy with? Couldn't this just reinforce sexist ideas about what women deserve? I can see how you get to neutral about all these behaviors and recognize that the man is doing his best if you split up. But if you stay together and are negatively impacted by their behaviors, then isn't it impossible to be neutral about them?
Angus Ross
It's kind of bizarre to me, in a sense, because so many people hear what we're sharing. And think that we're being advocates of being a doormat, advocating being a doormat. And I think it's, it's kind of ridiculous, because under no circumstances would I expect anyone to stay with someone, perhaps who's exhibiting all of the traits that she's just underlined, that would be ridiculous. What I feel like we're sharing, and hope, I don't know, maybe we can do a better job, I don't know, maybe I can do a better job is this idea that we don't have to take those behaviors personally. And so yeah, they can be doing all of those things. And in the grand scheme of things that can be unacceptable. Our suggestion that they can perhaps experience those things in a neutral way, is helpful, because it means that they don't have to suffer, they can see how this person is showing up. exhibiting those kinds of negative traits, is someone who's suffering someone who's got caught up. And, and, and for whatever reason, that's how they're showing up in the world. As soon as we start to take that personally, as soon as we start to make them responsible for our happiness, and suggests that that's what's impeding our opportunity to be happy in this world is that that's barking up the wrong tree. That's where we get ourselves into difficulty. And that's where we suffer, we suffer, because we start spinning these narratives around how life is, is so bad, and and and it's all their fault. And that means that we're automatically becoming a victim. So really, all we're suggesting is, is, is don't you're keeping a tally. I don't remember ever once saying, you know, did I say? You know, I've said it four times, there's no way you haven't said, you know, I'm counting the number of humms Oh, well, that's not we're not even doing humms? I haven't said that, you know, I know, I haven't said it, you know, other than just using that example. Anyway, we are suggesting that where people in relationships really suffer is that when they get into that victim mindset that I can't be happy unless they change. The fact is, the only reason why someone's being unhappy in the first place is that this is the narrative that they're spinning with thought. And if they find a way to not take the other person's behavior personally, of course, they can find that behavior unacceptable. And something that perhaps they don't want to live with.
Rohini Ross
Absolutely. And we would always encourage people to sort of, you know, follow their wisdom on that level. But we're telling them that if as soon as you start becoming a victim, that's where you get caught up in the game, that's where you suffer, you're kind of really getting back to the, you know, your partner's level of understanding, or you're kind of already getting pulled into that level of consciousness. What's the Einstein quote where he says, You can't solve a problem at the same level of consciousness that it was created, in a sense, that's what you're doing? You're trying to go and fix something by being or allowing yourself to be a victim to that behavior. So we're not suggesting that by any stretch of the imagination. And that's it's a, it's a completely different direction that we're looking at.
Rohini Ross
Yeah, I agree with you 100%. And I do really want to emphasize that we are not condoning behavior that is abusive or unacceptable. When we were working with Alicia, she was adamant that she wanted to stay in the relationship. And that was really what she wanted. And so we worked with her or I worked with her In a way that would support her not feeling victimized by the behaviors in the relationship so that she could then really decide if that was true for herself that she wanted to be in it. And if she did, how she could not take things personally, and find a space of peace within herself. And to me that was empowering and Angus and I were really clear that we are not attached to outcomes and relationships, we are not going to be attached to a couple staying together that we work with what we really focus on is helping each person in the relationship connect more deeply with their own internal wisdom. And we trust that when they can hear that wisdom within themselves, they will make the best decisions for themselves, which may be to leave a relationship, it may be to stay in a relationship, but that our work isn't to that make that decision for them. And in all of these different scenarios that are examined here in this question, I think it's really important to recognize that the suffering that we experience is a reflection of the thoughts that we're identifying within the moment. And somebody could be engaging in these behaviors. And we cannot agree with those behaviors. And we can choose not to be with someone because of those behaviors, but we don't have to be suffering around it. And so neutrality is really different than being neutral about the behavior. It's about a space of neutrality and peace within ourselves. And that, to me is so important to find that space of peace within ourselves that is independent of circumstance. Because when we find that space of peace, we do have greater perspective, we do have greater clarity, but it is not the same as condoning the behavior, that space of peace is a space within ourselves that is independent from whether or not we agree with behaviors. Yeah, that's very well said. And I think it's worth repeating that, when we're in a neutral mindset, we are much better able to access our wisdom and our intuition and have a better perspective on how to move forward and that moving forward may well mean not being with this person, because these behaviors in the grand scheme of things are not acceptable. But if we get caught up into a victim mindset, we're getting stirred up and all of the aforementioned wisdom and intuition is going to be hard to access. So it actually makes perfect sense to look in this direction. And one other thing that we notice in our work with couples is that often when one or both of the individuals are able to get into that state of mind where they're in a place of peace and connected with their innate wellbeing within themselves, often behaviors change as a result of that’s what happened in our relationship. We've seen it happen in numerous relationships that we've worked with in terms of the couples we've worked with. And so there is a connection with that but again, I want to be clear just as you're saying Angus that we are not advocating somebody What did you say just take it on the chin we're not advocating for them
Angus Ross
being a doormat we'll take you on the chin you know,
Rohini Ross
we have to change the game You didn't say when you know and you said about it yeah, not ready to do he said
Angus Ross
eight Well, you know, oh,
Rohini Ross
I'm gonna trick you into saying you know
Angus Ross
I'm sure that we're really messing with the sound levels too and I freaked out like that we'll see what happens moving forward. I think that it's a worthy game.
Rohini Ross
It's like Super Mario, your second level is gonna be
Angus Ross
ready to create podcast guys
Rohini Ross
can be acting the questions now? My question for you is this. I had a situation with my stepdaughter. She excluded me at a family function in front of about 100 family and friends. I was super embarrassed. It wasn't an in the moment thing she did. My partner knew she was going to be doing this and her husband to both had asked her to reconsider and she refused. She had months to do things differently, but fully chose not to. So she is basically so she basically He set me up on purpose. My partner was not happy about it either, but didn't tell me before the family function as he didn't know-how. I don't know why I suddenly decided to get dramatic at that point. You felt moved to Audacity. I have been the one stewing about this. And it's only been punishing myself with my thinking. Usually, if I didn't know what to do, I'd put the issue or problem on the back burner and let God or wisdom God or true wisdom, come up with an answer. And that usually works. She's having a baby, which should be a joyous time, but I am concerned when she has this baby, if I get close to it or her that she will hurt me in one way or another. It's not the first time I have been burned. any insight in how to get over myself would be appreciated? Well, I'm really hearing a lot of wisdom in the question itself. Just statements like the recognition that she's been stewing. And that’s been creating suffering for herself shows a lot of insight. The recognition of the value of being able to put things on the back burner and allow our deeper wisdom to reveal things to us also shows a lot of wisdom. And then even at the very end, saying, Can you help me get over myself? That to me is really profound, because the question is not so much. How do I change my stepdaughter? But it's how do I have a different relationship within myself with my own thinking about my stepdaughter? So I think that's a really great way of framing the question.
Angus Ross
Yeah, I like what you just said, having a different relationship within myself in terms of how her behavior is showing up and how I'm reacting to it. And I think Yeah, you're absolutely right. She seems to be underlining all the areas in which she feels like she's probably had a significant jump in consciousness and is able to view it from that vantage point. And I guess moving forward, it will be becoming more conscious about how she is taking those kind of behaviors personally. And being able to see the stepdaughter suffering, that obviously, that is suffering manifesting itself. And the compassion that she will probably feel for that will help her be new, more neutral about her own experience and not take her own experience so personally.
Rohini Ross
Yeah, I think with situations like this, it was mentioned that it wasn't a spontaneous sort of transgression. But really all behavior, whether it's spontaneous or not as a reflection of understanding. So the step daughter's behavior is a reflection of her level of understanding, it's not necessarily just a reflection of a low mood in the moment, this makes sense to the stepdaughter to do it this way, based on her reality, how she sees things and how things look to her. And so I think it's really important, especially with people that are in our life, you know, there's some people that we have a choice, whether or not we see again, but family members, often we don't have that kind of choice, we may be able to spend more or less time with them, but they're going to be in our lives in some way. And so to be realistic about people to have perspective, about what's challenging for them, what their behavior can look like, I think can be really helpful. And of course, having that happen in front of a large group of people I can completely understand and have empathy for that being embarrassing. But when you're able to see that that's not about you, that's a reflection of the other person's understanding what makes sense in their mind based on how they see things. When you understand that it's, it's not a reflection on who you are, that can help to alleviate some of the sting. And in terms of wanting to connect with the baby wanting to possibly connect with her and be close to her. I think if there's these realistic expectations, then it's easier to gauge what makes sense and what doesn't make sense. I have a complaint.
Angus Ross
Oh, you do, against you?
Rohini Ross
against you,
Angus Ross
Anything.
Rohini Ross
You've already figured out the you know, the game isn't fun. I'm not saying
Angus Ross
I have already said you know...
Rohini Ross
on one time,
Angus Ross
I think there's been a couple.
Rohini Ross
I've only heard one Well anyway, well, it's early days yet have I said any? No, but it seems like it's hard for my brain to sort of listen to what you're saying and, and try and track you knows. I think I wanted I'm trying to listen. And you probably have an advantage here wanting to multitask. You can track what I'm saying and pinpoint the ear nose, and maybe you just haven't done it. Maybe you haven't. Maybe I'm being hard on myself. Maybe you haven't literally, you know, slip out. We'll know when we listen back. I just want to get to the forfeit.
Angus Ross
Okay. What if I had to?
Rohini Ross
I've only got one?
Angus Ross
Okay.
Rohini Ross
You're probably at about 10.
Angus Ross
Oh, I had a muffled you know, I didn't let it out.
Rohini Ross
Well, you really learned very fast.
Angus Ross
Yeah, well, good. Because I want to get that out of my system.
Rohini Ross
You must be worried about what the fourth is going to be. Alright, we'll go into the next question. This is actually a question that I already answered in a blog post. But we thought it was good to explore here as well in this format.
Angus Ross
Why did they called it a blog?
Rohini Ross
I don't know, I don't know whether you origin of that word is
Angus Ross
it's just not a very nice word. Is it? blog?
Rohini Ross
Sounds like blog.
Angus Ross
Does.
Rohini Ross
I guess we could look it up? Can I start?
Angus Ross
Yes.
Rohini Ross
Rohini. And Angus, as I listened to thought kept coming to my mind that what matea was wondering about might be this. Yes, we can always do enough internal effort to bring ourselves into a place we enjoy with everyone and every thought. But if it takes a lot of energy to be that way, with certain people and circumstances, does that leave you with less energy for other things? For example, if Angus sneaks up on you and blows an air horn in your ear every day, you CAN in capitalize word, capitalize letters, get used to it and control your thinking around it. But DO YOU want to use that much energy around that thing every day? I wonder if it's an energetic return on investment issue. There are certain people I love but I don't want to be around them very much because of how much energy it takes to feel the way I like to feel around them. What can you say on this?
Angus Ross
Well, I would say if you crept up behind me, on my every day, I will probably consult with my lawyer and have a restraining order put on you. But you couldn't come within 100 feet of me at any point.
Rohini Ross
Would you stay married to me?
Angus Ross
Probably not. But if I could handle that. That's not what we're, we're not suggesting people should be with people who are abusive in that way. I don't know, on the grand scheme of things. You know, that sounds fairly abusive. I wouldn't like that. And so again, it just feels like that. We're not suggesting that people should stay together. If it's untenable, the relationship is untenable in ways where there's abuse, again, all that we're advocating, advocating. Where, what kind of accent Do you think that was sort of Old English advocate type? What we are advocating is that when you take it personally, when you allow yourself to be a victim to that and allow yourself to get into that kind of rumination, ultimately, you are shooting yourself in the foot, okay, maybe the experience that you are exposed to, is problematic and painful and traumatic, etc. But we have a tendency to really get ourselves into deep water through rumination by becoming a victim by really finding ourselves getting stuck into a narrative of thought, there really isn't a sense, it's just like, again, as I've said before, is cutting ourselves off from our wisdom, cutting ourselves off from our intuition, cutting ourselves off from the possibility of making a good decision in this situation. So that's all that we're really pointing to. I mean, it's, it's not really very complicated. It's very simple. on that level.
Rohini Ross
What occurs to me around that question is that if it's taking us a lot of energy to be around someone, then that's an indicator about our state of mind, not about them. And so if it's hard for me to be around you, it's because I'm in judgment of you. And it's the judgments that I have of you there creating the energetic drain. What we're going to say something.
Angus Ross
Oh, yeah, no Guess you answer the question a lot better than I. That was the whole point, wasn't it? Oh, went off on some bizarre tangent.
Rohini Ross
No, you didn't.
Angus Ross
Well, no, but I really like what you're saying at the end of the day is like we do waste so much energy in judgment, both of ourselves and the other individual, when we could be trying to get quiet, which in a sense, is another way of saying getting neutral, and have a much better resources, our disposal, which is wisdom and intuition.
Rohini Ross
And I also want to say it's absolutely okay to be human and to have your bandwidth. And if you can't help be in judgment around someone, then it's probably not good to spend a lot of time with them. So if that person is your life partner, it's probably not going to work out if you can't get out of the judgment. But I do want to say, Angus, I don't think that I would divorce you if you used an air horn, even if it was every day.
Angus Ross
Or guess each to their own.
Rohini Ross
I don't know that was your line in the sand?
Angus Ross
I don't think so. Sounds pretty excruciating.
Rohini Ross
You are more sensitive on the audio front than.
Angus Ross
I am for sure. Well, I probably wouldn't probably get close.
Rohini Ross
I'm not gonna test it out.
Angus Ross
Right. Good. How?
Rohini Ross
Reading not your forte. I was only laughing. Because you guys, the listeners don't know this. But when we do a soundcheck, I generally come up with these stupid little poems or Nursery Rhymes from when I was a kid. So there's, I think the first poem that I ever learned was how now, brown cow, why do you frown at me? regale you with the whole poem. It's very short. But I was just almost found myself when I read that first line when I read that first word How was about to go into how now brown cow, just because the setting and the situation is a whole ritual to it. I have to tell this story. To tell the story of when we're coming back from Hawaii I how does that relate to because you go into autopilot? Okay, your brain goes into autopilot. And so in this situation, you read the word how and your brain went into autopilot. Say yeah, now brown cow. So we're coming back from Hawaii and the girls, what were they? eight and 10 at the time? So the family's going through the airport. I go through first. Angus, I think you were... Where were the girls? Were they between us? Or behind you?
Angus Ross
know, I think they were ahead.
Rohini Ross
Okay, so maybe they've gone through
Angus Ross
Luckily for them. They've gone through been scarred for life.
Rohini Ross
I went next. And then you were behind me. And so I go through security. And I hear this sort of gasp of shock. I turn around and look to see what's going on. And I don't know it must have been a woman that gasp or somebody. And so Angus going through security took off his belt because of the metal detector and he put it whatever in the tray. Yeah, on the tray and the conveyor belt. You were in autopilot. So not only did you take off his belt, he starts undoing his trousers down.
Angus Ross
In my mind, that was the logical next. Why for any other reason? Would you be taking your belt?
Rohini Ross
I was so embarrassed that I just turned back and went through security. I pretended I didn't know you.
Angus Ross
Thankfully, I managed to recover my senses in time to not get to a point where there was any sort of indecent exposure.
Rohini Ross
You could have been arrested. I probably could have been here,
Angus Ross
thankfully. Anyway. moving swiftly on. I will. I will read this question how
Rohini Ross
now we're all gonna be going now Brown.
Angus Ross
How would you describe the difference between a low mood and a top and toxic behavior? There's no poem that goes with toxic behavior by the way. I can start again because I want to be serious about this. How would you describe the difference between a low mood and toxic behavior or a low mood and neglectful behavior?
Rohini Ross
Well, I don't think there needs to be a distinction there. Because when someone's in a low mood, they could be engaging in neglectful behavior, they could be engaging in toxic behavior, they could be engaging in just irritating, plain old, annoying behavior. So there's all kinds of behaviors that people engage in, when they're in a low mood. And I think part of this question is, again, about that misunderstood, I guess we did just did a really bad job. I think we just done a really bad job at not making it clear that there's a difference between understanding that when we're in a low mood, we have distorted thinking, and our behaviors reflect that. But we are never condoning bad behavior. But understanding the behaviors coming from a low mood can be really helpful, especially for the person on the receiving end. But really both people it's helpful for but it can be very helpful if you're on the receiving end of low mood behavior that's unpleasant to understand that it's not personal. And again, not because that means you should accept it, you should stay with the person that we you should agree with it or condone it. But simply understanding the behavior is a reflection of that person's state of mind, it's not about you, allows you to have greater perspective on it. And then based on having that perspective, it's easier to listen to your own common sense and your own wisdom. So then you can make the choices that are for your highest good.
Angus Ross
It is all about state of mind, and, and low mood, call it what you will, we're calling it low mood, but there's a spectrum to that which can include all of the above, and all the aforementioned qualities or lack of in this question,
Rohini Ross
and it doesn't mean that we're condoning any of those behaviors. And I will have to say that there's plenty of behaviors that I've engaged in from a low mood that I'm not proud of, and,
Angus Ross
and which would fall into the extremely annoying camp.
Rohini Ross
Yes. And I'm glad that you know, you've able, you have been able over the years to not take it personally and realize that that isn't who I am. But that doesn't mean that we should stay with someone. If their behaviors are unacceptable,
Angus Ross
you know, like someone blowing an air horn in your ear?
Rohini Ross
Well, now I really know what to do if I want to get rid of you. What if one person has taken this on board, but the other hasn't, despite exposure to this understanding, my partner still believes that my behavior is what makes him angry, this results in him trying to manage me so that he doesn't get upset. So this makes me think of my own experience around this where you were exposed to this understanding. And, and I wasn't. And I think that right from the get go. Looking back at that experience, I feel like you finally, you suddenly, or finally, finally suddenly showed up in a way where you were not taking my behavior personally. So in one particular instance, very early on, I think this is where you were coming back from a weekend with Jordan and the Prensky. And I probably was of the opinion, you were, I don't know spawning off up in the Pacific Northwest having the time of your life. And I'm stuck here with the kids holding the fort. And I was in a very, I was in a very low mood when you resurfaced. And I think that I want to just to pick a fight with you, just to sort of, you know, have a way of venting if you like. And, and so throughout that whole experience, you just did not react or respond in a way where I had anticipated that you would and I think that I kept on trying to find all those buttons that I could push and I think by that point, I got pretty adept at knowing what where your Achilles heel was in terms of getting a rise out of you, and you just wouldn't play ball. And I think at some point, I got to a place where I feel like wow, I really overstepped the mark. That's even you know, that's bad even for me here and like, Why is she not responding? And I think I even asked, you know, do you know, do you not have Come back for that. And you just looked at me and you said something along the lines of you know, I can see that you're just suffering with your thinking or words to that effect. You know? Oh My Goodness me. So you said something along those lines? Well, I can see that you're suffering with your thinking. And I probably at that point, apart from anything else that I would imagine a thought, Oh, God, here we go. Again. She's learned some new psychobabble. I'm gonna have to have to play catch up with. But what was so interesting is that it didn't really matter what you said, it was the look on your face. And the look on your face was one of compassion. And I don't think I'd ever seen that before in that context. So that was really, at that point. I wouldn't say it was jarring. But if I were to be that robot in lost in space, where he says danger, will Robinson, I would probably at that point say out of control. I think that's a Dalek actually isn't it that does that? Well, who I was out of control, or you?
Angus Ross
I would be out of control, something wasn't computing date, you know, something was not computing in my mind that this does not make sense. It's like, Why is she looking at me with eyes of compassion when I'm basically being a total dickhead. And so what ultimately was happening in that moment is a mirror was being held up to me that made me realize, wow, if she actually thinks I'm suffering, which is what that compassion, the lack of compassion on her face is suggesting, that made me be inclined to look at myself in that situation. And you know, that was the first instance. But it kind of went on from there, and I got more and more opportunities to see us see and observe me. In those moments. When I'm probably being a bit of a dickhead you were just seeing, obviously, someone was suffering, as borne out by this, you know, this, I did it again. I'm on a roll. Now, you hit a vein of gold.
Angus Ross
But as was borne out by this expression of compassion that allowed me to see well, maybe I am, maybe maybe I was inclined to ask myself a question, maybe I am being a bit of a dickhead here. And I think over time, I started to change. So George Pransky would have this, this, this saying that he'd often quote, which was that all boats rise with the tide. And I think slowly, but surely, my boat was coming alongside yours, because I was starting to see and I am showing up, and I am being a bit of a dickhead here. But that was as a consequence, or a symptom of you really being able to see my suffering in the moment and not take it personally. Just seeing it as suffering. And really, which is what is so astounding, actually having compassion for that. So that for me, is how I would answer this question. And it is a case of all boats rise with the tide, and we've seen it time and time again. And that was my own particular experience around it. And so what you're pointing to is if there was more compassion, or at least understanding that the husband is suffering, when he's trying to manage that it would be easier to not take it personally. And that might actually help the husband shift. Yeah, I think that was what my experience was I shifted, because I started to realize that Wow, my wife actually is looking at me as though I'm suffering situation. And eventually, it posed that I posed the question for myself, Well, maybe I am, it made me look, take a look at myself. That's why I would suggest it is kind of like being like, I found myself holding up a mirror to myself in that, in that instance, and I changed as a consequence. And I know for me, that was a complete game changer for me. So I was not on any level, suffering more, because I was seeing you with eyes of compassion. I was actually suffering so much less or I wasn't suffering. And so it wasn't that I was doing this to do you a favor. I was actually freed up inside of myself to know that I was absolutely okay. And even if you were suffering, and even if you were behaving badly, I didn't need to be suffering as a result of that I could simply see that you were in a low, you know, poor state of mind, behaving in ways that made sense to you based on how you saw things, but I felt like Teflon, whereas previously I would have taken it very personally, I would have probably engaged and become reactive or I might have cried and got upset, but by genuine seeing that your behavior was a reflection of your state of mind, I stopped hurting in the way that I had previously been hurting in our relationship. Yeah, that in itself is kind of a superpower. And absolutely diametrically opposed to this idea that some people might have that a person in that situation who's seeing the psychological innocence and being neutral and being compassionate is by no stretch of the imagination being a doormat. And I want to be clear, if you were doing, you know, worse behavior, I could have seen still seeing that it was coming from your low state of mind. And I could have also chosen not to be with you.
Angus Ross
Exactly. You could still have compassion for me, but still choose not to be with me.
Rohini Ross
Yeah, from a place of love.
Angus Ross
Yeah, exactly. Thank you, Rohini.
Rohini Ross
You supposed to start
Angus Ross
this? Thank you, Rohini.
Rohini Ross
It's an email read from that point where I just put the mark.
Angus Ross
Okay. Thank you, Rohini. No, I have loved I was just like, trying to put it together. The dramatic effect. Thank you, Rohini. I have loved every minute of Rewilding Love with Mateo and Alicia, maybe you have some resources on deep listening, as I don't really know what that means, and that
Rohini Ross
you can start.
Angus Ross
Thank you, Rohini. I have loved every minute of Rewilding Love with Mateo and Alicia. Maybe you have some resources on deep listening, as I don't really know what that entails. Surely it doesn't mean listening while your partner criticizes you at length.
Rohini Ross
I doubt that you would do deep listening, if I was just criticizing, would you?
Angus Ross
I think I would do deep rejecting.
Rohini Ross
So, we are not advocating any specific technique or practice in terms of what to do or not do. But we are saying that when you are in a state of mind that has you connected with your wisdom and has you connected with your heart, then you naturally know what to do. And the choice is going to be not only a choice that's good for the other person, it's first and foremost going to be good for yourself. So it potentially could include you listening to your partner or someone in your life, criticizing you. And holding space for them. I can't I mean, Angus, you don't do this. But I am thinking of a family member who that has happened with me where I've really held space, and listen to their discontent and their criticism of me. And my wisdom in the Mone moment was guiding me to just hear them out. And I didn't feel reactive.
Angus Ross
Sorry, am I against it still reactive? And unlike now with me hitting the mic? Or you did feel reactive?
Rohini Ross
Why? I didn't get reactive.
Angus Ross
Okay, I guess not, so maybe a little bit?
Rohini Ross
What did I do?
Angus Ross
Well, you would have done in the past?
Rohini Ross
Did I do anything?
Angus Ross
No, I guess I didn't again.
Rohini Ross
This is why you don't like sitting still sitting still
Angus Ross
no.
Rohini Ross
Anyway, it could include listening to someone who's sharing criticism with you, but only if you are in the place of being centered. And that works for you in that moment. So there would be situations where my wisdom would tell me No, that's too much, I'm not going to be able to handle that. And there might be other situations and I can think of somewhere I have really just listened to someone sharing their upset with me. And that's what it's felt like that was the appropriate thing to do in the moment. So deep listening is simply being present without a lot on your mind and being present with the other person. But again, it doesn't mean that if you are losing your bearings inside of yourself and getting destabilized, we would never advocate that you work against your wisdom. We are always going to encourage you to listen to your own common sense and your own wisdom and let that guide you. Yes. And I think that this is another thing to really underscore is this idea of what deep listening really is. so deep listening, well actually it's more a case of what it's not and what deeply listening isn't what deep listening is not getting caught up in analysis not getting caught up in judgmentnot getting caught up in being a victim, it's actually being able to see and understand that that's just me getting sped up. That's my analytical machinery trying to engage in this moment. What that robs me of is a presence that will be picked up by my partner who is spinning out of control. What really is going to be the most stabling is stabilizing influence on my partner is spinning out of control is me being present, it's not me going off in my analytical mind, into a state of judgment and ridicule or, you know, whatever the other terms we can use in that respect. It's allowing ourselves to disengage from that analytical machinery disengage from the judgment, and just be present in the moment. And again, don't want to sound like a scratch record, but it is going to be important to consider how neutrality is going to be a real ally, ally to us in that moment. And that will be cut that will be march, march. Mr. Chair, I feel like there's some sort of strange sort of entity trying to take over my buddy today. That has a completely different dialect than I'm used to. At some point, I'll try and understand what part of the world it's coming from. But I haven't figured that out yet. March. Anyway, I completely lost the thread of what I was saying. But basically, what I was trying to say I think is that it's important to be present when one's partner is spinning out of control. So it's important, it would be helpful. But how we lose that sense of presence is get stuck into the rumination of being a victim. And that's where we get ourselves into difficulty being in that place of judgment. And it's absolutely okay to not be able to be stable in the face of your partner's upset. It's okay to be honest, and we're not advocating for any of this to be used as a technique. I have done that. And I've shared experiences in this podcast where I did that with the kids, but I would say, I hear you, I hear you, but I was basically faking it. And they knew that I was faking it. And they hated it. Whenever I did that, because I wasn't truly being present. I was just saying the words and freaking out inside. So it's, it's, it's absolutely okay, to be honest. And if you can't listen to your partner, whether they're criticizing you, or whether they're doing something else, you can just be honest with yourself about it and take the break that you need to take. But what Angus is pointing to is that when we're in a place of presence, it doesn't hurt, we're not taking things personally, we're in a space of love. And from that space, we get the feedback as to what makes sense to do in that moment. And from a space of love, we might get the feedback to get out of there and have some space for ourselves. You know, I'm thinking the situation where I was present was coming from a space of love inside of me that really could see the person in front of me was upset, and needed me to be there, or wanted me to be there. And I was in that moment capable of doing it another moment, I might not have been capable of doing that. And it wouldn't have helped if I'd pretended I was capable when I wasn't.
Angus Ross
I'm wondering who that family member is. But I think I have a hunch.
Rohini Ross
In the podcast, the woman cites many examples of her husband treating her badly. For example, He doesn't let her know he's going to be home late. He doesn't even get her a card on Valentine's Day. He criticizes her body and appearance. And he expects her to do all the housework and never shows any appreciation for what she does. The answer you seem to suggest is that she needs to get neutral about all those things, and show no upset about them. It seems that you're saying that in order to make a relationship work, you have to have no standards about how you're treated, and not get upset if you're treated badly. But I don't really get the point. If my husband or I treated each other badly, we wouldn't be happy or neutral about it. And we'd expect an apology and an effort not to do the behavior again. What's the point of being in a relationship where you have to be like a robot and have no feelings if your partner treats you badly? Surely it's not too much to expect our partner to treat us with basic decency and kindness. If they can't do that, or they don't want to do that. Isn't it better to walk away? Do you think people should be neutral about all behaviors? Doesn't there come a point when some behaviors just make a relationship unenjoyable and not worth continuing? I don't understand how people can be neutral about these things, or why they'd want to be. Surely a relationship is to be enjoyed rather than endured. Question mark, exclamation mark, question mark, exclamation mark. So when she's saying, it's not too much to expect our partner to treat us with basic decency and kindness, I would say, absolutely, one would expect that. And if that's not the facts, not on the table in the relationship, by all means, get the hell out of there. But we're not saying hang around, we're not saying be a doormat, take it on the chin. We're not saying that's what neutral means. What we're trying to point people towards is this opportunity to not suffer through our own thinking and realize that that's how we suffer, it's not really what the person is doing, per se, it's where we take it in our thinking, that is the problem. And that's where we become a victim. And that's where we start to feel anxious, and the relationship starts to look really problematic. Yeah, by all means, if they're not living up to those standards and expectations, which are absolutely more than reasonable, then that might be caused to move on from the relationship. But anyway, if you were gonna move on for the relationship, it would be good to be able to do that from a place of neutrality. Yeah, that makes complete sense to me. And the other piece that I think is also important to point out here is looking at this through the lens of separate realities. Because for example, Mateo, not getting Alicia Valentine's Valentine's Day card. Part of his thinking on that was that he didn't want to lead her on, he'd threatened divorce, they weren't really necessarily certain that they were moving forward together at all at that point. And he didn't want to give her the wrong message. So in his mind, it was kinder not to give her a card.
Angus Ross
Yeah, and I think a lot of the behaviors that were surfacing were based on again, it's just based on state of mind, a very low, low mood was in play for both of them.
Rohini Ross
Yeah. And and again, I want to be clear, I'm not saying hey, it's great that he criticized her body or that he expected her to do all the housework, although she did say that she enjoyed doing all the housework and that she was happy to do that. So I guess every couple has their own division of labor that works for them. And that's what worked for her on that friend. So that I think the key point here is that they were experiencing a hard time in their relationship. They were both in very low moods, they were both behaving badly in their own ways. And once they got into more, a more settled state within themselves, they were able to reconnect with their own peace of mind, their own neutrality, not neutrality, about the behaviors, neutrality within themselves as that place of peace. And from that place of peace. They both decided that they really wanted the relationship to work, and that they were willing to make the changes necessary in order to have a relationship that would be satisfying for both of them. Yeah. Because what comes with that place of peace is a healthier perspective. And from that healthier perspective, they can see that their relationship can thrive in no uncertain terms. When a partner is in a low mood, how do you protect the child? taking it personally? Is the partner the child in this scenario? Yeah. I mean, do you think the partner is the child?
Angus Ross
Maybe they think, think of their partner as a child
Rohini Ross
read the question again,
Angus Ross
when a partner is in a low mood, how do you protect the child taking it personally?
Rohini Ross
No, it's the child of the couple.
Angus Ross
Okay, well, they're not very specific.
Rohini Ross
obvious to me.
Angus Ross
Like, it could be like an insult, even in the question, but I think my partner's a child.
Rohini Ross
They're taking themselves personally,
Angus Ross
oh, taking their partner's behavior, who they think is a child. They're taking that behavior personally.
Rohini Ross
Yeah, you need to read the question one more time, sorry.
Angus Ross
When a partner is in a low mood, how do you protect the child taking it personally?
Rohini Ross
It's like one of those things where you listen to it too many times, and then none of it makes any sense. I think this is a pretty basic question and I still can't understand it.
Angus Ross
So I understand it, but it could be a very separate reality, they may not have a child, they don't need one because the partner is one.
Rohini Ross
I'm going to run with it as if it's talking about their partner being in a low mood, and the child is taking the behavior personally,
Angus Ross
okay, let's, let's, let's do that.
Rohini Ross
Well, I can really relate to this question because I remember when our kids were younger, I would get very triggered, by the way that you would sort of behave around them. And I would feel like I needed to protect them a lot. And I'm not saying this is applicable to the situation with this person, but oftentimes the things that I would think were negatively impacting them, when I would actually talk to them, they'd be like, that's not a big deal. I'm not upset about that. And then, you know, you'd be able to pretty much get away with anything. And then if I lost, my temper would be like, they'd be terrified. So when I think it's important to obviously check things like that out and not make assumptions, because I was making assumptions about how the kids were taking things and they were much better at being neutral and not taking things personally than I was. So that was one part of it. And the second part of it is, if the child is taking it personally, then it's important to just have a conversation with the child about low moods and help them understand how when people get into low moods, they get grumpy, they get irritable, they can get cranky. And it's not about the person on the receiving end, it's a reflection of the person who's behaving that way their state of mind. And most kids, I think, can recognize that they get irritable, and they get cranky, and they can understand what a low mood is, and that they recognize that their behavior often doesn't look, it's best when they're in that state of mind. So I think that's something that a child could understand. And I also want to be really clear, I mean, the low mood behavior isn't mentioned here. But I'm not condoning any mistreatment of children or saying that the behavior is okay. I'm literally just saying how to talk to your child about low moods. Yeah, I mean, it's actually a really good opportunity to have a philosophical conversation with one's child. And it made me think about how I had learned from the Pransky is that the best way to learn this understanding is to teach and I'm not suggesting that you take all those moments as teaching opportunities, but they may be great opportunities to have a physical philosophical conversation where there could be a teaching element to it. I think it's important to sort of find a balance between teaching and getting on one soapbox with one's one child. But nevertheless, if you can share this understanding with a child, it's more than likely that you're sharing in its simplest form, which is going to be the best way to share this understanding, the simpler we can be, the more effective and more impactful we can be. So in a sense, it's like, that might be an incredible way to just start the process of learning how to become a good coach or teacher was learning how to teach kids because you have to distill it down into something simple and uncomplicated. Yeah, and what a blessing for kids to understand about low moods so that they don't feel bad about themselves when they are getting into a low mood and perhaps not behaving their best if they can understand that their mood is going to stabilize that that isn't who they are, they don't need to worry about low moods when they happen. And that they can get better at not listening to their thinking or acting. From that thinking. I think it's beneficial on so many levels for them to learn about that.
Angus Ross
Yeah, I think that's an incredible thing for a child to learn. As soon as we get this better, as far as I'm concerned, I can see.
Rohini Ross
Hello, I've loved your podcast, it's been nice to see how you brought this couple along this journey of understanding the nature of thought. I'm also happy about being able to ask a question, I've done a good amount of self growth. And this understanding has really resonated with me. I hear often that it only takes one person to see in quotation marks this to make a change. And I do see, feel and think and experience that much of the time. But more and more I see my husband drinking more wine instead of less. I see him escaping more into Netflix. I see us separate more and more. I think we're both lost in the weeds and reactive states for most of our lives together. And I can see how caught up I was in that narrative. I've had some massive rethinks and what seemed at one time inherently stressful, I now see is just my thinking. Yet I see him lost in the weeds. And I think he kind of knows he's lost, but he doesn't know how to get out. And he doesn't even want to figure out the tools or understanding that will help him navigate a path when he threw our seven-year-old into a snowbank out of rage. And I was almost not angry because I wanted to do the same thing. I knew I needed to figure out what was happening or give my kids to the police to help them find someone else to raise them. Turns out my son has autism, autism. And both my husband and I were raised by very reactive, unstable loving and supportive parents. I know I want more. And so I've searched for tools to become more stable and more neutral to others' low moods. This understanding clicked quickly for me. And the rock metaphor that Rohini shared was very helpful. I've encouraged him to come along this journey with me for the last seven years. But he has a lot of stubborn stubbornness. I know he has a huge heart and wants to live a life with more ease and purpose, which is what has kept me with him and our three kids. I feel ease and expansiveness and purpose when I'm not with him. And I feel constriction and tension and suffocation when I am with him. I know this is my thinking. So I try to have compassion. But he is brimming with anger, resentment and helplessness. My son is triggered immediately by low moods. He is emotionally so sensitive to them, and becomes very reactive. He lives in a constant state of anxious thinking. So my question is, how can I stay with him when I've had such a shift in consciousness and awareness, and he continues to live like he has when he threw our son into the snowbank? Well, I guess what I'm inclined to say here is that it's important, I think, to not really get too preoccupied with trying to concern yourself with how the other person is showing up. I think really, what we have to do is focus on our own mental health and well being. And I think the good news, if we do that is generally it affects the other person involved. You know, like we've spoken before. And we've talked about how all boats rise with the tide, I think that we focus on our own mental health and well being, and don't get caught up in judgment. And don't get caught up in recrimination or rumination on both those counts, I think that we find ourselves falling into a better state of mind. And probably there's a good chance that through that state of mind, the optics through which we view the relationship will change, and take on a more positive view. We're certainly not advocating staying with someone who is abusive. But we are always again advocating that it's important to be able to reflect on one's own state of mind and realize that, that all of our suffering is going to be coming through our rumination and thinking and judgment around certain situations. And in relationship, obviously, that can be problematic. But it has to begin at home, it has to become a case of us looking within, and finding and seeking out our essential nature and realizing that that's where my innate mental health is, and that the other person really doesn't have a role to play, the other person really has their own innate wisdom, and they're on their own path. But it's not for us to see if we can manage or control that path. We can only really work on ourselves. But I do feel like if we work on ourselves. And we work on ourselves by using this understanding and hopefully, growing in consciousness, that that's going to have a positive impact on the relationship. And that's just something that we've seen time and time again. And I think that, you know, what I hear in this question is that there's a clear commitment to wanting to stay together. And so if wisdom is guiding you to stay with your husband, then the question is, how do I find my peace of mind with my husband exactly as he is, you know, if you're clear that you're in the relationship, then that becomes the direction to look in. And the journey of awakening is really seeing how that is possible. Even though it might look impossible in the moment. I know that the situation that you're describing, it sounds like your husband's, you know, really struggling and having a hard time. And so I'm not comparing my situation in my life with your you and the situation in your life. But I do know that there were times when I really felt that there was no way that I could be happy in a relationship with Angus based on the way low mood behaviors were being expressed at that point in time myself, my behaviors and his behaviors. But when I really was clear that I wanted to be in the relationship But I didn't want it to be over, then it opened up possibilities to see how do I find my peace of mind with him exactly as he is. And when we understand that that peace is within us, then there's nothing that can stop us from experiencing that. And again, that doesn't mean that we have to stay in a situation. But what's empowering is recognizing that that place of peace is within, and that we have access to it and nobody, and no circumstance can take that away from us, even though we're not going to experience it all the time. No human being does, but it does reside within and that's the direction to look in. And I have a, I have a more abstract way of looking at this too. Because I think in terms of our human experience, let's say that our human experience is akin to a computer game, this is the game of life. And I've talked about this already, but using this metaphor, but if it were to be a computer game, and that this is the game of life, maybe the purpose of the game of life is to grow and evolve in consciousness. So on that basis, if we are players and see ourselves as players in the game of life, to really do better at the game to improve our skill sets within the game of life, it is actually important to find ourselves playing with people who are at a higher level of skill than us. So if I'm in a relationship with someone who's at a higher level of consciousness, that's in a sense, kind of really giving me the opportunity to rise to that level. And I do feel like that's partly to do with the fact that while we talk about this idea that all boats rise with the tide, and it only really takes one person to get this and start showing up in that way. I feel that really, in a sense, it's like, wow, we're actually doing our partner a really great favor. Because like any person who's on any team, if I was on a team, I would want to be paying with pet players that were better than mice. So that I could get better. That's just how it is. So in a sentence is like, you know, you become your partner, spiritual teacher, in the same way that you're there, your spiritual teacher, you're both growing and learning together. And I think that we just have to really just focus on our own growth. And trust, the other party has their own wisdom, and they're on their own path. And I think that's the key piece here. When someone's struggling, when we see them engaging in behaviors that aren't healthy for them, we can forget that they have wisdom inside of them. And that's what's going to take care of them we can. I know for myself, I can get into patterns of over responsibility and trying to, you know, fix, you have definitely done that in the past a lot. But more and more, I get clear. And I see that there's wisdom unfolding always. And that I don't necessarily understand why it looks the way that it looks. But that each one of us has that compass, and it's unfolding, whether we see it or not. Yeah. And it may or may not record this, because I think we could stop there. But I'll see if this works. It's interesting to consider that the judgment that we might not even express that we might feel towards our partner, is a form of management and control is just kind of unrequited management and control which may be more insidious and more problematic. We just really have to trust in what you were just sharing about, you know, they have their own wisdom. And in that sense, they're really no different than us is like, yeah, sure, of course, they are subject to their own programming conditioning, and they have their own low mood to deal with and contend with that might become habitual, and they show up from that mindset. But they still have all the capacity that they need to stabilize and find a healthier better level of consciousness that will shine through, which will have a much more greater opportunity to shine through if we don't try to sort of step in, and manage and control. When listening to Episode 15 It felt a little gaslighting for Mateo to suggest they never looked back and only look forward when he was the offender so to speak. I know later Alicia weighs in on this saying she doesn't want to ask any questions but what she ultimately empowered to do so had she wanted to. I agree that obsessing or belaboring the point isn't helpful and can be traumatic. But when initial exposed to this news. Do you agree that it would be okay for her to voice her concerns and questions had she had any that it seemed like Matteo was saying, Well, I'm still going to stay over here away from you while you react to this news. And then once you've cooled off, I'll come home, that kind of feels like a total cop out to me and like not taking any responsibility for his actions. His actions came from a very hurt place, but they were still tremendously hurtful. And it feels like Alicia maybe was gaslighted out of being able to have what would be a very normal and understandable response to that. Just wondering if any, any of this came up in the session and did and didn't, just wondering if any of this came up in this session, and didn't make it to the recording? So for the first part of the question, which was asking, do you agree if it would be okay for her to voice her concerns and questions if she had any? Absolutely. And that was part of the purpose of that meeting altogether, so that we could support them and having that conversation, her wisdom in that session was really guiding her to not dig into no more of the details. And so we honored that. But if she had wanted to know more, or had other questions we would have supported there being a conversation around that. And so, you know, there was, there was the space for that. And that wasn't what resonated at that point in time for her. And then regarding the second part of the question, I think, I made it pretty clear that I thought it was a huge red flag in my mind that Matteo was not willing to move back in. And I think it's very astute of this listener to recognize that he was afraid of Alicia's reactivity. And so he wasn't confident enough to go back and be there and needed some time to see if she was going to become reactive. And there were numerous follow up sessions. After that one session that we really shared the content of an episode 15. And so those didn't make it into the podcast, because we didn't want to have a series that just kept going on and on and on. And so there was work done with both Alicia and Matteo to support them in being able to have the space especially for Matteo to have the space to be with Alicia, and to be with her emotional reactions, and to not pathologize them and to not judge her for having whatever they may be. And there was the space for Alicia to share her hurt, and the experiences that came up for her based on the information that was revealed to her. So we didn't include that in the actual episodes. But a lot of that work was done one on one. It wasn't done. As us working with them as a couple, we were really looking at how to help them get comfortable within themselves, one for Alicia to have the confidence and the empowerment to ask for what she needed. And that's when things really did go south another time because she got empowered and was not happy with the distance that Matteo was perpetuating in the relationship and it looked like you know, things were going to be over yet again. But then that kind of mobilized him to sort of really dig deeper within himself and realize that he needed to commit or else he was going to lose her at that point.
Angus Ross
Yeah, you answer that question very thoroughly. And I don't really have anything to add. But where does that term gas light come from?
Rohini Ross
I should know. You've never heard it before. I've heard of it. But I wonder of its origins and why? why it's been used in this context. You know, I don't know where it comes from. Do you know what it means? Well, I know what a gaslight is. What is a gaslight, gaslight would be in the days of yore, where they didn't have electricity. I think they would like the street lamps would be gas when they will maybe they wouldn't be maybe off on a tangent. Maybe you'd have a gaslight when you would go camping. Nothing to do with what we're talking about.
Angus Ross
But it's such an unusual term. I don't know. I'm kind of curious about its origins.
Rohini Ross
Yeah, I don't. I don't know the origins. We'll have to put that in the show notes.
Angus Ross
So in this context, its meaning.
Rohini Ross
So in this context, we're not talking about lighting gas. It's a psychological term that is used when someone is trying to get someone you know, they're acting in a way that's manipulative to get someone to question their reality and to make them wonder if they really are going crazy or not. So let's say yelled and screamed at you. And you said, Stop. What are you so mad about? And I'm like, I'm not mad at you. What are you talking about? That would be gaslighting you.
Angus Ross
Yeah. You know, I kind of understand what it meant. But I just, I'm just kind of really stupefied as to how it would ever relate to the subject of gastropubs. How did it? Where are the origins? I want to know the origins. Yeah, I don't have this saying, I don't know how I ended up with psychology.
Rohini Ross
I don't know. And we'll have to look at us gas lamps or something or
Angus Ross
Carl Jung have a had a fondness for Calla gas camping trips.
Rohini Ross
I don't think this comes from either Freud or Jung, but we will look it up and we will put it in the show notes.
Angus Ross
Okay. I look forward to that.
Rohini Ross
Well, those are all the questions that we have received so far. So that concludes the QA portion. And I'm really disappointed about the game, Angus.
Angus Ross
Cuz because I won.
Rohini Ross
No, did I say any? You knows?
Angus Ross
I don't recall you saying any you knows.
Rohini Ross
Yeah. So then I went because you had three. But I said it would take 10 to get to a forfeit.
Angus Ross
Right. But, but maybe I'm just getting better at not saying, you know.
Rohini Ross
Well, clearly.
Angus Ross
I listened to some of my recorded material, and not just in the podcast, forum format. And I hear myself saying, you know, a lot. I remember there used to be a boxer called Frank Bruner in England. He was a heavyweight boxer, and he get interviewed by this lovely, lovely man. And he would say, you know, every other every other word or every other sentence. Yeah, you know, it was a big part of it.
Rohini Ross
You said another one?
Angus Ross
Did I say I did.
Rohini Ross
Maybe I'm gonna get to 10. Before the end, maybe? Maybe? I don't know. I always thought, Oh, look, I used a mixing it up a bit. I always thought that that just was a bit of a filler. Or I've noticed for me, it's a bit of a filler. It's a bit of a stalling pattern. While I try to think of the next thing to say or to do, it's a sort of way to join up sentences as involved in the process of articulation. But it sounds in my sense, it sounds so inarticulate. When I'm when I'm saying I've and I noticed I say it when I'm kind of a little bit nervous. Or I'm kind of freaking out a little bit about what to say next. Well, he did an amazing job because he barely had any in this. And that's why I'm disappointed. And I think my filler word. Maybe is less. You know, I might say that too. But I think I use the word like a lot.
Angus Ross
Oh, like,yeah, that's quite a North American thing.
Rohini Ross
It is. Or valley girl thing.
Angus Ross
You're turning into a valley. Yeah. Our kids say that. Yeah. Oh, well, that's, that's something that we can play with. Maybe you can focus on you know, and I'll focus on like,
Rohini Ross
Yeah, I don't notice if I said it. I think we should do for you.
Angus Ross
Everyone does Hmm. I don't think you can take Um, I don't think it's like oh, good try. I mean, I would actually I think every two seconds I say um, um,
Rohini Ross
um, um, then you said as a kid.
Angus Ross
Yeah, you say well, you can have different meanings as a kid it could be if someone did something terrible in class you go. Um! Um, I'm telling you. What, I wouldn't do that. Because I wouldn't be one of those kids. He was a tattletale but I will go. We will go. I'm on that level. Um.. taking a whole new direction this podcasts
Rohini Ross
what would be a forfeit?
Angus Ross
I don't know. I don't know. We'll have to think about that. Maybe also listeners to make suggestions.
Rohini Ross
Oh, no, that could get really scary. Okay.
Angus Ross
Hey, but it might be quite fun.
Rohini Ross
Okay, we're upping the ante.
Angus Ross
We'll see how creative they can be in time to establish what the necessary forfeit should be.
Rohini Ross
Alright, well that concludes your questions answered episode.
Angus Ross
Your questions answered episode was brought to you by hum, and you know,
Rohini Ross
I'm like and we're going to be doing some recorded interviews with people that are some people. Some folks, we haven't gotten them all lined up yet, but we look forward to staying connected even though our journey with Alicia and Mateo was complete. We will be doing some guest speakers.
Angus Ross
Yeah, it's really fun.
Rohini Ross
We're having some guest speakers